Bio fuels - A planetary disaster?

[DaveGT6]

I read elsewhere that the threads were getting boring so I thought I'd try and throw a pavement slab into the tranquil pond of apathy.

Ok so motorsport gets a pretty poor press as discussed on numerous other threads and we racers are seen as the spawn of Beelzebub for burning up all the hydrocarbon based fuel reserves. The future generations are brought up to believe that the infernal combustion machine is the anti-christ and that alternative/green and electric power sources are whiter than white.

Electricity - viewed as a green power source - yet it is at best a secondary power supply as it needs to be generated from a primary source of power. As most of this is either through fossil fuel or nuclear how on earth is this a green power supply? Sustainable sources are being increased but are no where near meeting our demands.

Bio fuels. At present the rain forests are being ripped up at an absolutely phenomenal rate to satisfy the green lobby's desire for sustainable power! How on earth can we justify this raping of the Earth's resources? A few people are making substantial profits from this desecration of the earth and it is being justified in the name of sustainability!

I put it to you that we racers are as green as the next person as we use a natural resource on a limited basis and restrict our use to weekends only. We do not interfere with the natural order of things, only seeking fuel from deep within the planet and would not seek to impact any eco-systems knowingly.

However, it is likely that we will become increasingly marginalised as we are viewed as un-ethical by the great and the good, however mis-informed they may be.

Over to you guys and gals.....

[AU N EGL]

Global warming is a Scam.

Running out of petroleum or other fuels is a bigger scam

Brain washing our youth into believing about Global warming and we are running out of fuels sources is the biggerst cry for reform in the school system and governments.

and I am an environmentalist that manages over 5000 acres of tree farms.

[terence]

Banana plantations and the like are only thought up on the grounds that the land custodians can profit by making ridiculously low wages to the natives,plus they are working in appalling conditions--Concerns for the Planet,?complete and utter B------'s.Is it not true that a Jumbo flying across to the States and back uses the same amount of fuel the a whole season of races uses in the UK?

[StephenRae]

Fuel from home to Oulton and back=£20 fuel for FF1600=£25 I'll bet your average golfer or fisherman or a 'save the planet' activist uses more than that on a day out.

[AU N EGL]

I think we had other threads on the bio-fuel crisses ( aka another goverment subudiszed scam) too.

YES there are parts of the plannet that bio fuels, corn or soybean based fuels could be more econmic and cleaner the coal or LNG to fuel.


Funny part I bet even a real emmission test was done on race cars, they would burn cleaner the the average road going car. Running at WOT tends to clean everything out.

[ss_collins]

The green backlash...

I'm not gonna get into the positives and negatives of particular fuels or climate change, global warming or anything.

But I'll say this, reducing emissions can only be a good thing, and if motorsport is stubborn and thinks its smarter than the world at large and refuses to change it will get banned. If it embraces greeness and wears it on its sleeve it will be a net benefit to our sport. Motorsport can position itself as the research lab for fuel and propulsion technology (and of course marketing!) This means the sport is suddenly seen as if he sun shines out of its rear end and as a result flourishes. Then its up to the boffins in the back rooms (motorsport valley) to work out what really the best solution is.

If you ignore or refuse to move with the green obsessed times you will get left behind. Theres a huge amount of issues with green fuels - it should be motorsports role (at all levels) to solve them.

[Tim Falce]

Every time I read something about global warming I get the urge to turn an extra light on

[terence]

Originally Posted by falcemob

Every time I read something about global warming I get the urge to turn an extra light on

Quite right Falcie,you should see my house!!.Global Warming? Over Hyped,it only goes to show how gullible some people can be. Light Bulb Manufacturers for one havent had it so good for years and they are only the tip of the Ice- burgh.Personally,I like mild winters for the plain and simple fact that I hate snow.

[DaveGT6]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

The green backlash...

Theres a huge amount of issues with green fuels - it should be motorsports role (at all levels) to solve them.

Reduce emissions - absolutely! Move with the times - for certain! I have a huge concern that bio-fuels are seen as the green answer and are supported by motorsport (see Le Mans the last couple of years) but this admirable opportunity has been entirely hijacked by unscrupulous opportunists that are cutting down thousands of acres of Amazon rain forest to supply Palm Oil for massive profit. From a motorsport perspective the issue is that if we aren't seen to support biofuel we become the object of every green lobby's vitriol - but if we do support biofuel and the world comes to its senses and realises the impact that biofuel production is having - we become the object of every green lobby's vitriol. How can motorsports identify a role that will help solve issues when they are hijacked in this way?

I think we are in a Catch-22 situation.

[AU N EGL]

Fine make some bio-fuel sticks and slap them on your race car.

Dino fuel is still BIO

[Podd37]

Hey don't worry guys. Over here we have decided to save the entire planet for you all. We have banned ordinary light bulbs from 2009, in favour of so called long life ones that cost around €10 each. And with various new tax deductions a hybrid Lexus jeep thingy that does 20mpg will be cheaper than a petrol engined 2.0 Eurobox!! Oh and did I mention the road tax of around €2000 for anything over 3.0 litres! Carbon Tax apparently. Who says its all a scam. Government doesn't think like that.......does it?

[ss_collins]

Yes there has been much hijacking - just putting stickers on your car doesn't kid anyone (see Honda) but trying genuine alternatives and proving/developing them in competition is an opportunity too good to miss. You'll note I've not limited this to just bio fuels, you need to take a global view and at the same time a localised one. I know of one racecar that is going to run next year on bio fuel grown and processed withing a couple of km of the track and if suggestions come to anything - the cars main fuel source will be grown on the circuit infield. Bio is not always bad, but its certainly not always good

In Iceland on the new track being built there electic is a great option - because for them to produce it costs not a lot if anything environmentally.

But whats right? thats the big question - I hate the talk of climate change and global warming - I'm not a climate boffin, I'm not an earth scientist and frankly very well educated people have told me complete opposites. So who knows, the focus is wrong certainly. I think its time motorsport sat up and said - to the wider world - right sod all these arguments over whats green and what isn't - our aim is to cut emissions, and develop real workable solutions for the future. We are going to be green rather than talk about it, all of our racecars are now little fuel labs, and at the same time we will convince our fans, families, friends, suppliers and sponsors to seek proper green solutions.

Right now the biggest issue is not actually the fuel in the tank rather the supply and distribution of it, petrol is very efficient indeed as there have been years of perfecting it. But that doesn't make petrol the right way to go

[jbzspace]

Denial

[jbzspace]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Global warming is a Scam.

Running out of petroleum or other fuels is a bigger scam

Brain washing our youth into believing about Global warming and we are running out of fuels sources is the biggerst cry for reform in the school system and governments.

and I am an environmentalist that manages over 5000 acres of tree farms.

IN DENIAL

[Eddy V]

From what I have seen on Countryfile a few weeks ago: the real disaster seems to be cows, they produce more green gasses than cars.
And no, it comes from the front, not the back end.

So let us ban them!

[Justin Moran]

Originally Posted by jbzspace

IN DENIAL

Your proof Sir?

You cant just cry DENIAL without providing an arguement and until someone convinces me that this increase in global temperature isnt just cyclitic, you wont fool me with stupid ecobabble!

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by jbzspace

IN DENIAL

Not at all. You might be. Do a little research, on Climatic changes from 1000 years ago and 10,000, years ago today.

Look for ave temp and CO levels. Both were much higher 1000 ( 13*F higher), and 10,000 years( 24*F higher) ago then they are today.

Then look at CO levels That is the real shocker on how HIGH global CO levels were 10,000 years ago

Plus look at the 25,000 year and 1,000,000 year earth temp cycles and changes.

Remember we only live 72-100 years, the earth is how old?

If anything we are in a global cooling phase. . .

I am not saying we should just go pollute our planet, not at all.

Ok nuff. Sorry Mods for the OT ramble

[Tim Falce]

Is this thread about bio fuels or just an Eco rant? Let me know so I can change the title as needed or even merge it with one of the other Eco threads that are on 10 T.

[bdwoody]

Originally Posted by Eddy V

From what I have seen on Countryfile a few weeks ago: the real disaster seems to be cows, they produce more green gasses than cars.
And no, it comes from the front, not the back end.

So let us ban them!

no no no eddy just slap a tax on them..

[AU N EGL]

What sort of "bio-fuel" is available for the average racer in the UK and Europe?

We can get the VP Race fuels, 15% ETOH 100 octane( US rated ) here.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by DaveGT6

Bio fuels. At present the rain forests are being ripped up at an absolutely phenomenal rate to satisfy the green lobby's desire for sustainable power! How on earth can we justify this raping of the Earth's resources? A few people are making substantial profits from this desecration of the earth and it is being justified in the name of sustainability!

Since when were the rain forests being ripped up to satisfy the green lobby?
I was always under the impression that they were being ripped up to satisfy our desire for timber and then for farming crops (food) and grazing animals. I've not heard of it being used for bio fuels, but then I don't take a great interest in these matters, and I always thought the green lobby were against rain forest destruction, have they suddenly changed colour?

[ss_collins]

What sort of "bio-fuel" is available for the average racer in the UK and Europe

E85, various other ethanol blends (E5 and E10 of course), proper bio diesel is available if you know where to buy it and of course chip fat!

Falce it is true that there have been a few belgiums deforested for bio fuels, but its a hugely complex calculation to work out the net worth - so hard to say for sure whats best.

On the global warming point - well its an aimless debate you can find armies of 'experts' for both sides so the average person is left utterly clueless. AU N EGL can say it until he's blue in the face, he may well be spot on, but I know theres loads of people stating the complete opposite... whats the truth? there seems to be no way to tell.

[SidewaysFeltham]

On what's right, in terms of Climatology, as a starting point, read Michael Crichton's book, The State of Fear.

OK, yes it's a novel, but Crichton is a scientist and all of his books are written from a factual and extremely well researched backdrop of science and reality. The bibliography alone is well worth the price of the book.

The current climate change lobby is a convenient way for governments to raise taxes on a lie (does carbon tax on air travel fund research into cutting carbon? Err, no!), failed academics and scientists to earn a fabulous living and obtain lucrative research grants on a "Science" with no proven basis (in fact quite the reverse!) and big business to earn even more billions by setting up Carbon Exchanges and pimp even more billions off the backs of the hard pressed majority!

Rant over!

That said, I do believe we have to urgently address air pollution and its current main culprit, the automotive engine. Anyone who has experienced places like Mexico City in its worst days will understand the problem; as did I!
Motor Sport does have some urgent PR problems, in my view. F1 being the biggest culprit! Consumption in the region of 4 MPH is not good PR!

Up until the Self-Interested Duopoly of Mosely highjacking the FIA and the awful midget highjacking F1, every few years the rules were changed to encourage better performance from less or greater economy and less weight.

Since the Surrey Midget took over and the vested interests of the sponsors usurped the sport, FI has fundamentally stood still: and become ever more processional. The sheer concept of a gokart driver almost winning the World Championship in his rooky year are madness personified!

When Emmerson Fittipaldi obtained sponsorship from Copersuca, it seemed that Brazil's thrust into biofuels could change things, even marginally; Unfortunately, that didn't progress too far. Shame. Brazil has shown how over-cropped sugar and a global glut allowed the production of ethanol etc from unwanted sugar. AAnd Europe is still awash with rape and sunflower oil, thanks to CAP. No need, as yet to destroy swathes of equitorial rain forest, which is a self-defeating syrategy anyway, since the forest, as we know, regenerates the oxygen atmosphere and controls global precipitation.

The automotive industry, per se, including all forms of motor sport, has a clear duty to drastically improve economy, rather than trotting out the same old offerings, tricked out as "New Improved" and "This Year's new Model"; when all they are is the same boring stuff, wearing a false moustache and glasses.

The current focus on pandering to a public perception that was generated by the manufacturers in the first place, i.e. 4 X 4s and SUVs of all sorts, is typical of the malaise. Who really needs a Hummer? Yet that vehicle is the wet dream of many urban drivers!

The old Mobil Economy Run could perhaps be disinterred now with some considerable benefit.

[DaveGT6]

Originally Posted by falcemob

Since when were the rain forests being ripped up to satisfy the green lobby?
I was always under the impression that they were being ripped up to satisfy our desire for timber and then for farming crops (food) and grazing animals. I've not heard of it being used for bio fuels, but then I don't take a great interest in these matters, and I always thought the green lobby were against rain forest destruction, have they suddenly changed colour?

My understanding is that there is massive destruction of the rain forests caused by the replacement by palm oil crops to feed the desire for amongst other things - bio fuel - no food crops although I believe that there is also some land for grazing. The green lobby are against rain forest destruction - but support biofuels - that was my angle. The point I was trying to make is that our sport is seen as environmentally destructive but we are caught in a trap in supporting biofuels because they are also causing primary environmetal damage as opposed to alleged secondary damage that fossil fuels cause.

I had hoped to start a discussion regarding what we as a racing community should be doing in this potential confusion as opposed to a save the planet rant so hope that this thread is not moved falcemob.

[terence]

An easy diversification for Farmers is to shout "I'm doing something for the future fuels,I'm growing Rape".At the same time these bloody crops have created more allergies than the cows .Which brings me to another point,if cows are so good at producing methane ,how come they are not equipped with the necessary pipework.?