Direct injection to be introduced?

[Razor]

With the renewed intrest in DI (direct injection) and the technology being used in the current road going Commodore and with the immenit announcement of DI to be used in the Falcons, should V8 Supercars look into the possiblity of using DI?

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Razor

With the renewed intrest in DI (direct injection) and the technology being used in the current road going Commodore and with the immenit announcement of DI to be used in the Falcons, should V8 Supercars look into the possiblity of using DI?

No.

[David Brand]

Well the Car of the Future regulations allow for it, so there's no reason why the teams can't pursue these technologies from 2012.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by bluesport

No.

And the reason why is?

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Razor

And the reason why is?

Reliability. I mistrust the technology on petrol engines. It works well on diesel engines but petrol is too volatile and I wouldn't be surprised if the new commodores coming out with the direct injection systems end up being torched. Injection into the inlet manifold just above the inlet valve is much safer. My son-in-law was considering purchasing a direct in injection commodore but I cautioned him to wait until the technology was proven and the incidence of most failures will mostly increase as the vehicles age so we may not get a clear picture for ten years or so.

[Oldtony]

Dead right Bluesport. And lets go back to four barrel Holleys, breaker ingnition, H pattern gearboxes and drum brakes while we are at it!
Can't have this modern technology involved in motor sport can we? Next thing you know someone will be suggesting them new fangled overhead cams.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Dead right Bluesport. And lets go back to four barrel Holleys, breaker ingnition, H pattern gearboxes and drum brakes while we are at it!
Can't have this modern technology involved in motor sport can we? Next thing you know someone will be suggesting them new fangled overhead cams.

Gee, you really are old, aren't you.

[kramer]

Originally Posted by bluesport

Gee, you really are old, aren't you.

It's called 'Hyperbole' (high-per-bowl-ee). It's an obvious exaggeration used for effect.

In the old days, developments from motor racing found its way to road cars, making them better.

That doesn't happen any more.



Kramer

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by kramer

It's called 'Hyperbole' (high-per-bowl-ee). It's an obvious exaggeration used for effect.

In the old days, developments from motor racing found its way to road cars, making them better.

That doesn't happen any more.



Kramer

Well as DB posted earlier COF allows for it so it will be interesting to see if it is adopted and what the results will be.......it could provide marginally better fuel economy and therefore shorter pitstops, but racing engines are o/hauled regularly, as for road cars, I would recommend caution and a "wait and see" policy.

[Oldtony]

Hyperbole? Is the origin of that Greek, Latin, or just that it's the bowl you aim for when taking the P**s?
Yep I am old, the car in my avatar is the first F1 car I fell in love with.
And as for DI Mercedes were using it before that car appeared on the scene.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Hyperbole? Is the origin of that Greek, Latin, or just that it's the bowl you aim for when taking the P**s?
Yep I am old, the car in my avatar is the first F1 car I fell in love with.
And as for DI Mercedes were using it before that car appeared on the scene.

Are they using it in their current models old fella?.......and has there been any failings/shortcomings?

[Marcos WTF]

[QUOTE=Oldtony;2686292]Dead right Bluesport. And lets go back to four barrel Holleys, breaker ingnition, H pattern gearboxes and drum brakes while we are at it!

It's called NASCAR!

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by bluesport

Reliability. I mistrust the technology on petrol engines. It works well on diesel engines but petrol is too volatile and I wouldn't be surprised if the new commodores coming out with the direct injection systems end up being torched. Injection into the inlet manifold just above the inlet valve is much safer. My son-in-law was considering purchasing a direct in injection commodore but I cautioned him to wait until the technology was proven and the incidence of most failures will mostly increase as the vehicles age so we may not get a clear picture for ten years or so.

It's post like this that make me feel comfortable with the need to post less on this forum.

If bluesport keeps up with this level of profound wisdom, I just might ban myself from posting.

It's not my job to fix stupid.

[aj_308]

Wikipedia is your friend..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_direct_injection

Direct injection is well tested, and now used by most of the worlds major manufacturers. Its just a matter of time.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

It's post like this that make me feel comfortable with the need to post less on this forum.

If bluesport keeps up with this level of profound wisdom, I just might ban myself from posting.

It's not my job to fix stupid.

Well try adding some profound wisdom of your own instead of attacking the person that made the post.......as previously stated by OldTony the technology has been around for a long time and has been widely used on diesels so if it doesn't present problems why hasn't it been more widely used on gasolene engines?

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by bluesport

Well try adding some profound wisdom of your own instead of attacking the person that made the post.......as previously stated by OldTony the technology has been around for a long time and has been widely used on diesels so if it doesn't present problems why hasn't it been more widely used on gasolene engines?

Fair question.
It was sucsessful on the SL series Mercs back in the 50s, but was extreemly complex and costly using the then available technolgy. The metering for individual cylinders at varying throttle openings when it had to be all controlled as a mechanical process was a tribute to the engineers, but much too complex for series production.
In the 90s along came the computerised control systems for constant pressure, common rail injection systems with the timing, duration and pressure avaqilable to each individual injector, and thus the spray pattern, controlable by electronics. With the aleady available know how on injection patterns in diesel combustion chambers this was immediately transferable to those engines, and happened very quickly.
While the advantages of direct petrol injection were obvious, a certain amount of research had to be done on spray patterns and combustion efficiency, and thus the lag.
The VAG group has been the leader for mass produced engines, but there are a lot of other manufacturers on board now. With the demand for higher efficiency expect it to become the de-facto standard.
Meanwhile it would be great for motorsport to be amongst the leaders rather than living in the past. (Like I do some of the time)

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Fair question.
It was sucsessful on the SL series Mercs back in the 50s, but was extreemly complex and costly using the then available technolgy. The metering for individual cylinders at varying throttle openings when it had to be all controlled as a mechanical process was a tribute to the engineers, but much too complex for series production.
In the 90s along came the computerised control systems for constant pressure, common rail injection systems with the timing, duration and pressure avaqilable to each individual injector, and thus the spray pattern, controlable by electronics. With the aleady available know how on injection patterns in diesel combustion chambers this was immediately transferable to those engines, and happened very quickly.
While the advantages of direct petrol injection were obvious, a certain amount of research had to be done on spray patterns and combustion efficiency, and thus the lag.
The VAG group has been the leader for mass produced engines, but there are a lot of other manufacturers on board now. With the demand for higher efficiency expect it to become the de-facto standard.
Meanwhile it would be great for motorsport to be amongst the leaders rather than living in the past. (Like I do some of the time)

Thanks for that Tony.......I suppose with the V8's it depends on whether or not it significantly adds to costs.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by bluesport

Well try adding some profound wisdom of your own instead of attacking the person that made the post.......as previously stated by OldTony the technology has been around for a long time and has been widely used on diesels so if it doesn't present problems why hasn't it been more widely used on gasolene engines?

No, it's not you, it's me, seriously. I am the problem.

If you knew that GM in the US were campaigning a Corvette with DI technology on a 6L LSX engine in one of their racing series... before the governing body asked GM to temporarily withdraw it from competition until new rules could be drafted up to accommodate for it, albeit in a smaller capacity engine... you'd know the technology is already available.

The fact that manufacturers are using the technology now is proof enough of the reliability of such injection systems, not to mention the improvements to emissions, power and fuel economy for relatively little penalty in increased cost. The fuel pumps are now able to reliably deliver high enough pressures to make the technology feasible in spark ignition engines. There are even higher pressure pumps & compatible injectors being readied for future applications, for gasoline engines... so there is no problem as far as reliability. If anything, it's more the quality of fuel that's critical to engine longevity... but that is the same for all engines.

The GM Gen V V8, due in 2012, will definitely be DI ready. And GM is not the first manufacturer to adopt DI technology with spark ignition type engines.

The future is now... in spite of your insecurities.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

No, it's not you, it's me, seriously. I am the problem.

If you knew that GM in the US were campaigning a Corvette with DI technology on a 6L LSX engine in one of their racing series... before the governing body asked GM to temporarily withdraw it from competition until new rules could be drafted up to accommodate for it, albeit in a smaller capacity engine... you'd know there is nothing to fear about such technology advancements.

The fact that manufacturers are using the technology now is proof enough of the reliability of such injection systems, not to mention the improvements to emissions, power and fuel economy for relatively little penalty in increased cost. The fuel pumps are now able to reliably deliver high enough pressures to make the technology feasible in spark ignition engines. There are even higher pressure pumps being readied for future applications, for gasoline engines... so there is no problem as far as reliability. If anything, it's more the quality of fuel that's critical to engine longevity... but that is the same for all engines.

The GM Gen V V8, due in 2012, will definitely be DI ready. And GM is not the first manufacturer to adopt DI technology with spark ignition type engines.

The future is now... in spite of your insecurities.

OK, but my major concern is with older engines with possible wear and pitting of the injector faces over a longer period (similar to what sometimes occurs with valves). Could there be problems with fire in the fuel system as the pressurised fuel upstream of the injector will now be at the point of ignition.......and surely it will be a more time consuming and expensive exercise to clean the injectors for optimum performance and economy.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by bluesport

OK, but my major concern is with older engines with possible wear and pitting of the injector faces over a longer period (similar to what sometimes occurs with valves). Could there be problems with fire in the fuel system as the pressurised fuel upstream of the injector will now be at the point of ignition.......and surely it will be a more time consuming and expensive exercise to clean the injectors for optimum performance and economy.

Fire? How so? The injector's duty cycle is closed off well before the mixture is ignited.

So how is that any different to the even more complex but proven diesel DI system? I would think certain maintenance practices are employed by qualified technicians to mitigate any safety risks (like relieving the fuel pressure in the lines before undertaking any maintenance work).

Don't disagree with being expensive to maintain but we're talking motor racing here. As far as consumers... we live in a disposable society and I'm sure there'd be more expensive maintenance costs on a VW TD 4-banger than you'd likely ever see on a GM V8 (both comparatively equally priced when new).

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Marcos WTF

It's called NASCAR!

They are switching to fuel injection in 2011...

[bludvl_x19]

Originally Posted by FIRE

They are switching to fuel injection in 2011...

That's going to make plate racing interesting

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Fire? How so? The injector's duty cycle is closed off well before the mixture is ignited.

I was thinking more of road cars that are not serviced regularly by authorised technicians.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by bluesport

Well try adding some profound wisdom of your own instead of attacking the person that made the post.......as previously stated by OldTony the technology has been around for a long time and has been widely used on diesels so if it doesn't present problems why hasn't it been more widely used on gasolene engines?

Why hasn't it been more widely used before? Simple; because manufacturers are increasingly under the kosh to reduce their emissions and improve fuel efficiency....which Direct Injection does. Hence why they are now moving over to it. And as they haven't needed to use it in the past, they didn't bother as it is more expensive.

But, seriously, to think that Direct Injection in petrol engines is largely unproven technology is really really silly.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

But, seriously, to think that Direct Injection in petrol engines is largely unproven technology is really really silly.

......or really really wise......it's unproven from Australian manufacturers over the long term.