Dominant 'garagiste' and engine manufacturer.

[Adam43]

This post, from the McLaren Honda rumour thred got me thinking.

Originally Posted by Teretonga

...
The McLaren-Honda combination was by far one of the most successful partnerships between a 'garagiste' and a major manufacturer. Ever.

It can't get much better than the 1988-1992 era for Honda...

Is Teretonga right?
What about Williams-Renault? Or some of the DFV teams? Lotus? Too much change there? McLaren-Mercedes?

It is a little subjective as what dominance means, but I'm sure there will be a few stats too.

[Oldtony]

"It can't get much better that the 1988-1992 era for Honda".

My suggestion would be that there has never been a more dominant engine than the Ford-Cosworth DFV.
In fact during it's life F1 at times could have been called Formula DFV. Sure the Chasis changed around it but that unit was at the heart of development of F1 and many of the modern constructors, and some greats we have lost built their reputations around that engine.

[Marbot]

DFV normally aspirated 3.0 litre 90 degree V8

Formula One Drivers' Champions (12):
1968 Graham Hill (Team Lotus)
1969 Jackie Stewart (Matra)
1970 Jochen Rindt (Team Lotus)
1971 Jackie Stewart (Tyrrell)
1972 Emerson Fittipaldi (Team Lotus)
1973 Jackie Stewart (Tyrrell)
1974 Emerson Fittipaldi (McLaren)
1976 James Hunt (McLaren)
1978 Mario Andretti (Team Lotus)
1980 Alan Jones (Williams)
1981 Nelson Piquet (Brabham)
1982 Keke Rosberg (Williams)

Formula One Constructors' Champions (10):
1968 Lotus
1969 Matra
1970 Lotus
1971 Tyrrell
1972 Lotus
1973 Lotus
1974 McLaren
1978 Lotus
1980 Williams
1981 Williams

155 race wins

5 Constructors Championships with Lotus.

7 on the trot.

The late 60's and the 70's were 'owned' by Cosworth powered teams.

And that's just the DFV 3 litre variant!

[Bononi]

Bingo !

[Mr V]

Teratonga is right, that era can't get much better for Honda, what the others do is irrelivent to them.

[kart_racer]

Williams won 10 races in '92, Mclaren won 15 in '88. Isn't that what he means by dominance.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Teratonga is right, that era can't get much better for Honda, what the others do is irrelivent to them.

The McLaren Honda thread is here:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=130930

The Ford DFV was a dominant engine. What about constructor (garaiste) and engine?

[Teretonga]

Hi Guys
What I meant in my original post was that the 1988-92 era was Honda's best era in F1, compared with their other earlier and later efforts.

The Cosworth Ford DFV achieved far more wins but no one 'garagiste' had a partnership with Ford or Cosworth in that era that was as dominant as Honda was with McLaren 1988-92.
If you dropped Mansell's title winning 92 year from the stats and just looked at 1988-91 the percentages would rise further.

Of course Schumacher in 2000-2004 inclusive was perhaps even more dominant by some reckonings but that wasn't a partnership between a specific 'garagiste' and a major manufacturer so it wasn't what I was referring to.

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

What I meant in my original post was that the 1988-92 era was Honda's best era in F1, compared with their other earlier and later efforts.

In fact you could say from late 1985 to 1991, they were the dominant engine manufacturer. Williams is sometimes forgotten when Honda is mentioned.

Originally Posted by Teretonga

The Cosworth Ford DFV achieved far more wins but no one 'garagiste' had a partnership with Ford or Cosworth in that era that was as dominant as Honda was with McLaren 1988-92.

Very true, but Cosworth supplied 85-90% of the grid from the late 60's to the early 80's.
Advancements in engine design and development probably won't allow Honda to achieve the level of domination they had during that period, I would go so far as to say that they really struggled in the later effort.

The other thing to consider is with Williams, they had Piquet and Mansell, then moved to Mclaren where the drivers were Prost and Senna. If you can name me a better driver from 1986 to 1992 that I haven't thought of, I'd love to know, because with that driving talent, there wouldn't be much competition.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by herowassenna

In fact you could say from late 1985 to 1991, they were the dominant engine manufacturer. Williams is sometimes forgotten when Honda is mentioned.

It's true that Honda was in F1 and had good success while with Williams 1984-1987 but my point was the success of partnership between them and McLaren.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Hi Guys
What I meant in my original post was that the 1988-92 era was Honda's best era in F1, compared with their other earlier and later efforts.
...

it got me thinking

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Marbot

DFV normally aspirated 3.0 litre 90 degree V8

Formula One Drivers' Champions (12):
1968 Graham Hill (Team Lotus)
1969 Jackie Stewart (Matra)
1970 Jochen Rindt (Team Lotus)
1971 Jackie Stewart (Tyrrell)
1972 Emerson Fittipaldi (Team Lotus)
1973 Jackie Stewart (Tyrrell)
1974 Emerson Fittipaldi (McLaren)
1976 James Hunt (McLaren)
1978 Mario Andretti (Team Lotus)
1980 Alan Jones (Williams)
1981 Nelson Piquet (Brabham)
1982 Keke Rosberg (Williams)

Formula One Constructors' Champions (10):
1968 Lotus
1969 Matra
1970 Lotus
1971 Tyrrell
1972 Lotus
1973 Lotus
1974 McLaren
1978 Lotus
1980 Williams
1981 Williams

155 race wins

5 Constructors Championships with Lotus.

7 on the trot.

The late 60's and the 70's were 'owned' by Cosworth powered teams.

And that's just the DFV 3 litre variant!

Did all the engines in this period come from Cosworth directly, or were some tuned/developed/prepared by outside engineering houses?

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Did all the engines in this period come from Cosworth directly, or were some tuned/developed/prepared by outside engineering houses?

Initially all were maintained by Cosworth but as the engine became available generally and universally used a series of other shops were licenced to do rebuilds and then it progressed to various shops doing their own development work.

McLaren had employed John Nicholson to work on Can Am engines but then set him up as Nicholson-Mclaren Engines and he did all their DFV work through most of the 70's and 80's. A number of other engine shops did similar things, some contracted to F1 teams.

[strider]

The purest example of that is probably the Repco Brabham with Jack Brabham and Denny Hulme in 1966/67. Not a long period, but a real achievement nonetheless.

[strider]

Originally Posted by Adam43

The Ford DFV was a dominant engine. What about constructor (garaiste) and engine?

My last post was in reply to this question.

You also have Jack Brabham with the Cooper Climax in 1959/60.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Initially all were maintained by Cosworth but as the engine became available generally and universally used a series of other shops were licenced to do rebuilds and then it progressed to various shops doing their own development work.

McLaren had employed John Nicholson to work on Can Am engines but then set him up as Nicholson-Mclaren Engines and he did all their DFV work through most of the 70's and 80's. A number of other engine shops did similar things, some contracted to F1 teams.

The other main tuners were firms like Langford & Peck, Alan Smith, John Judd, Heine Mader and maybe even John Dunn at Swindon?

Had Williams maxed out on what they should've done between 1991-97 when 4 drivers titles were achieved instead of what really ought to have been 7, I think we'd be saying Williams-Regie would have been THE dominant combo?

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by strider

My last post was in reply to this question.

You also have Jack Brabham with the Cooper Climax in 1959/60.

Would we add the Lotus/ Coventry Climax combination to this list? 1963 and 1965 champions.
Not consecutive years, obviously, but still the dominant partnership at the time.

Originally Posted by chunterer

Had Williams maxed out on what they should've done between 1991-97 when 4 drivers titles were achieved instead of what really ought to have been 7, I think we'd be saying Williams-Regie would have been THE dominant combo?

It proves a point of driver/ team combination. Piquet, Prost, Senna and Mansell dominated F1 between 1985 to 1993.
I think for Williams to have dominated for those 6 years, they would have needed Senna (91) and Schumi (94) in their team.
Not simply because they were the best, but more importantly, it removes them as rivals.

I'm grateful that both Williams and, before that, Mclaren allowed their drivers to race, because dominance as displayed during the Ferrari/ Schumi years was nauseating.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by herowassenna

I think for Williams to have dominated for those 6 years, they would have needed Senna (91) and Schumi (94) in their team.
Not simply because they were the best, but more importantly, it removes them as rivals.

Not necessarily.

They just needed a reliable car in 1991, Mansell was more than capable.

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by Adam43

This post, from the McLaren Honda rumour thred got me thinking.


Is Teretonga right?
What about Williams-Renault? Or some of the DFV teams? Lotus? Too much change there? McLaren-Mercedes?

It is a little subjective as what dominance means, but I'm sure there will be a few stats too.

it has to be williams renault a true garagiste! with mcclaren honda in a very close second. each as dominant as the other in their own eras but williams has a more prolonged success by about 5 times.

one point though, the way i see it i dont really see mcclaren as a garagiste, not since the f1 was released, but how long have they been a "manufacturer", has it been a manufacturer since 1988 when the f1 was first being put to paper?

with regret, red bull renault will have to be included in this, but thankfully not as dominant

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Not necessarily.

They just needed a reliable car in 1991, Mansell was more than capable.

Sorry, probably how I wrote it.
I do remember Mansell wasn't always conclusively quicker than Patrese in 1991.
If it had been Mansell and Senna at Williams that year, Senna wouldn't have been the opposition.
Mansell proved in 1986 and 1987 that he was capable, he humbled Piquet those years.

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by NewYankee01

one point though, the way i see it i dont really see mcclaren as a garagiste, not since the f1 was released, but how long have they been a "manufacturer", has it been a manufacturer since 1988 when the f1 was first being put to paper?

I'd disagree with Mclaren being a manufacturer because of the F1.

They designed a bespoke car, with an engine designed by BMW. They sold about a 100 cars, hardly a manufacturer.

I wouldn't count them as a manufacturer with the Mercedes SLR either.

The MP4/12C, with their own engine and factory brings them into that category.

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by herowassenna

I'd disagree with Mclaren being a manufacturer because of the F1.

They designed a bespoke car, with an engine designed by BMW. They sold about a 100 cars, hardly a manufacturer.

I wouldn't count them as a manufacturer with the Mercedes SLR either.

The MP4/12C, with their own engine and factory brings them into that category.

ok, ill crawl into my hole! i forgot what constitutes a manufacturer is to build cars with their own engines, not assemble them.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Personally I find it hard to call anyone who spends hundreds of millions to build racing cars "garagistes". That period is long gone.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

Personally I find it hard to call anyone who spends hundreds of millions to build racing cars "garagistes". That period is long gone.

And the garages became factories...

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

Personally I find it hard to call anyone who spends hundreds of millions to build racing cars "garagistes". That period is long gone.

I would agree with that comment. The age of the garagiste in any form disappeared for good in the mid 90's. Once aerodynamics became the primary differential between the cars and the teams began building wind tunnels, fields shrank from what they had been in the early 90's and the manufacturers began entering the sport and spending really big, everything changed.

I'd still put the early 90's, when prequalifying had to take place and we had single car teams turning up to try to get a car in the field as probably being the last bastion of the garagiste.
In that era it was still possible for a small team to get a car on the front few rows (Example; Martini/Minardi, deCesaris/Dallara at Phoenix 1990) and even an occasional podium.
But by 1994 prequalifying had gone, the small teams disappeared, and the whole business was far more financially serious. It was far more technological and the day of the whoosh-bang conceptually a car on the back of cigarette packet and putting it together as a small operation was well and truly gone.