Group A or V8 Supercars? (Merged)

[FAS33]

I seen one clip of this series and almost felt asleep watching the slowmoblies going round the track, (except Bathurst) I mean I couldve drove my car on the grid and and kept up with the pack. so many times in history the media seem to portray that this was the REAL DRIVERS championship and only the best could be in it. (just like any other series) I dunno bout you guys but although the cars wouldnt of been easy to drive, I still think it was just a sunday drive sort of series, and these Legends were quite some age, so maybe they wouldnt of been as quick when they were younger,so maybe that would've made it seem like they werent going fast? or because the cars were closer to production?

[formerf1champ]

Oh, here we go!

[GTRMagic]

If I answer "NO", do you think it will stop discussion?

[peckstar]

ok i'll bite

personally enjoyed group A.

I have found though that once we moved to the V8s the group i take to bathurst increased and now we get a good size group every year. where as under Group A in the end it was just me and for two years I took a rookie mate. Now we get ten or so every year.

[MitchZ06]

Ofcourse it's overrated, Jamie Whincup wasn't racing back then!

Slowmobiles? Your beloved Godzilla with all it's 650hp AWD prowess isn't a slowmobile. FML.....

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Ofcourse it's overrated, Jamie Whincup wasn't racing back then!

Slowmobiles? Your beloved Godzilla with all it's 650hp AWD prowess isn't a slowmobile. FML.....

just saying more hp than a v8 and in theory more traction. but 6 seconds slower than a current v8. I would have to say they were overrated then based on that

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by peckstar

just saying more hp than a v8 and in theory more traction. but 6 seconds slower than a current v8. I would have to say they were overrated then based on that

6 sec slower than a 2012 supercar or a 1993 supercar?

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Ofcourse it's overrated, Jamie Whincup wasn't racing back then!

Slowmobiles? Your beloved Godzilla with all it's 650hp AWD prowess isn't a slowmobile. FML.....

wasn't refering about that one. but you'll find back then, it was a bit quicker then the rest of the field, AWD and Turbo's ftw

[MitchZ06]

No aero doesn't help....

[DAVID PATERSON]

I think Group A was under rated.

For the only time in it's history, the ATCC and Bathurst 1000 were run to the same rules as the ETCC, BTCC, JTCC , DTM etc. How awesome is that? The whole world singing from the same song sheet, local accents aside. The cars were closely related to what you see in the showrooms and you could compare one model with another. There were different classes, so little cars and big cars were all in together, mixing it up.

It wasn't perfect, the 500 sporting evolutions rule was a rather large loophole and they never figured out how to get parity between turbos and atmos, but i can't think of another flaw.

I'm astounded by the suggestion that they were slow. I recently accepted the role of custodian of Group A lap records for Australian tracks, so i am reallly keen to hear what is the best lap time on any Australian circuit of any keyboard hero in his street car. I will then produce the Group A lap records on that circuit, for comparison.

[Marcos WTF]

Originally Posted by DAVID PATERSON

I think Group A was under rated.

For the only time in it's history, the ATCC and Bathurst 1000 were run to the same rules as the ETCC, BTCC, JTCC , DTM etc. How awesome is that? The whole world singing from the same song sheet, local accents aside. The cars were closely related to what you see in the showrooms and you could compare one model with another. There were different classes, so little cars and big cars were all in together, mixing it up.

It wasn't perfect, the 500 sporting evolutions rule was a rather large loophole and they never figured out how to get parity between turbos and atmos, but i can't think of another flaw.

I'm astounded by the suggestion that they were slow. I recently accepted the role of custodian of Group A lap records for Australian tracks, so i am reallly keen to hear what is the best lap time on any Australian circuit of any keyboard hero in his street car. I will then produce the Group A lap records on that circuit, for comparison.

Closely related to what was in the showrooms? I must have missed the
showrooms & car yards fllled with sieras, LHD BMW's & Volvos and assorted other cars that were never sold here.

For my my money, Group C was more related to what was in the showrooms.

But as for Gp A being slow? No.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by Marcos WTF

Closely related to what was in the showrooms? I must have missed the
showrooms & car yards fllled with sieras, LHD BMW's & Volvos and assorted other cars that were never sold here.

Originally Posted by Marcos WTF

Genuine reflection of what was on the road? Not on the roads around my humble abode.Then or now.

I've seen more sierras in one Lakeside round of the ATCC than I've seen on the roads in my entire life.

Ditto the Volvo Turbo- the exact model eludes me.

Given that Australia had taken on an International set of regulations, you had to expect that cars not sold here would be used, especially if they were competitive propositions (as the likes of the Sierra's were)

[Woolley]

I think the initial post mis-undertands the relationship between speed and entertainment. If pure speed is all it needs, then we'd all be at drag racing.

Group A could race, they weren't locked to the road like Skalextric and the mixture of cars had different strengths at weaknesses at parts of the track or during a stint.

One of the first races I ever attended was ETCC at Donington Park in '84 or '85 (not sure which). A bunch of Rover V8s, BMW 635CSis, Volvo 240 turbos, loads of smaller class Alfas and Escorts, an RX7 etc were certainly not dull and were a real handful down the Craner Curves.

Personally, from watching a car through a couple of corners I can't tell if it's 6 seconds a lap slower, but I can tell the driver is working hard to acheive that lap-time, and a car that looks as if it's being driven on the edge is far more interesting than one that's just glued to the road.

Grp A did have some significant rule problems, both interpretation and enforcement, but it was definitely good to watch. Just watch the Walkinshaw Jaguar's Bathurst qualifying lap and then try to convince me that a V8SC is better than that. If you think it is, you have no soul.

[Trev Campbell]

Originally Posted by Woolley

I think the initial post mis-undertands the relationship between speed and entertainment. If pure speed is all it needs, then we'd all be at drag racing.

Group A could race, they weren't locked to the road like Skalextric and the mixture of cars had different strengths at weaknesses at parts of the track or during a stint.

One of the first races I ever attended was ETCC at Donington Park in '84 or '85 (not sure which). A bunch of Rover V8s, BMW 635CSis, Volvo 240 turbos, loads of smaller class Alfas and Escorts, an RX7 etc were certainly not dull and were a real handful down the Craner Curves.

Personally, from watching a car through a couple of corners I can't tell if it's 6 seconds a lap slower, but I can tell the driver is working hard to acheive that lap-time, and a car that looks as if it's being driven on the edge is far more interesting than one that's just glued to the road.

Grp A did have some significant rule problems, both interpretation and enforcement, but it was definitely good to watch. Just watch the Walkinshaw Jaguar's Bathurst qualifying lap and then try to convince me that a V8SC is better than that. If you think it is, you have no soul.

Nailed it !!!!

[Speed Merchant 91]

If you think Group A was overated, then watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MisYANIBoG4

this,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MisYANIBoG4

and this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCD4dS2Nd5U

...then say with a straight face that Group A was overrated.

[davyboy]

Group A was fantastic ! Not only could you enjoy battles for victory up and down the field... the cars themselves were interesting too as they were a genuine reflection of what was on the road. As a spectacle, it was incredible. I feel privileged to have seen so many of these races in the flesh. Is it better than the current spec. series ? I don't know... both have their merit... but was it crap, hell no way !

[Marcos WTF]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Group A was fantastic ! Not only could you enjoy battles for victory up and down the field... the cars themselves were interesting too as they were a genuine reflection of what was on the road. As a spectacle, it was incredible. I feel privileged to have seen so many of these races in the flesh. Is it better than the current spec. series ? I don't know... both have their merit... but was it crap, hell no way !

Genuine reflection of what was on the road? Not on the roads around my humble abode.Then or now.

I've seen more sierras in one Lakeside round of the ATCC than I've seen on the roads in my entire life.

Ditto the Volvo Turbo- the exact model eludes me.

[KA]

Originally Posted by Marcos WTF

Genuine reflection of what was on the road? Not on the roads around my humble abode.Then or now.

I've seen more sierras in one Lakeside round of the ATCC than I've seen on the roads in my entire life.

Ditto the Volvo Turbo- the exact model eludes me.

That's the risk trhough with an international formula- and it might not have reflected what you saw on the roads in Aus, but it did reflect what we saw on the roads over here in Europe.

The real beauty of it though, was that Europe could meet Australia and Japan to a common rulebook (even if we did seem to interpret it a bit differently!).

Commodores might not have had much relevance to what we saw on European roads, but we were very glad to see Brock, Grice and Moffatt come over to Europe in 86/87, you got to see the top European teams at Bathurst, and I still remember watching Dick Johnson's Sierra showing a clean pair of heels to the best Europe could offer (until that water pump packed up...) at Silverstone in '88

Definitely good days...

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by KA

That's the risk trhough with an international formula- and it might not have reflected what you saw on the roads in Aus, but it did reflect what we saw on the roads over here in Europe.

The real beauty of it though, was that Europe could meet Australia and Japan to a common rulebook (even if we did seem to interpret it a bit differently!).

Commodores might not have had much relevance to what we saw on European roads, but we were very glad to see Brock, Grice and Moffatt come over to Europe in 86/87, you got to see the top European teams at Bathurst, and I still remember watching Dick Johnson's Sierra showing a clean pair of heels to the best Europe could offer (until that water pump packed up...) at Silverstone in '88

Definitely good days...

KA is right. There were different cars marketed in different territories which is why the Sierras may have been slightly alien in Oz, the Commodores slightly alien in Europe, but the BMWs and Toyotas could be seen in Europe, Asia and the Americas. That was all down to the car companies' marketing. However what I meant in terms of road relevance was that for example a Ford Sierra Cosworth RS500 racing in Group A was using the same configuration as its road going counterpart, albeit modified. So it had the same shell and the same engine etc... It's one reason why performance [through the corners specifically] is poorer than today's V8s. Spectacular though they are, the present V8s bear little resemblance to what's on the road.

It was also the closest we ever got to a world saloon car championship.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by davyboy

KA is right. There were different cars marketed in different territories which is why the Sierras may have been slightly alien in Oz, the Commodores slightly alien in Europe, but the BMWs and Toyotas could be seen in Europe, Asia and the Americas. That was all down to the car companies' marketing. However what I meant in terms of road relevance was that for example a Ford Sierra Cosworth RS500 racing in Group A was using the same configuration as its road going counterpart, albeit modified. So it had the same shell and the same engine etc... It's one reason why performance [through the corners specifically] is poorer than today's V8s. Spectacular though they are, the present V8s bear little resemblance to what's on the road.

It was also the closest we ever got to a world saloon car championship.

see i think you raise there the argument for it being overrated. Australains generally have no desire to see little 4 cyclinders put putts run around. especially when we went from a time of big v8's (and then back to v8's). from that basis the series was overrated

It was great that we had world saloon car championship. But from a car point of view they were a bit underwhelming.

From a ford fan point of you, we had some moments in the sun, but the holden fans would just point out that we couldnt buy one and so we were back in our boxes

[chavez]

Originally Posted by Marcos WTF

Genuine reflection of what was on the road? Not on the roads around my humble abode.Then or now.

I've seen more sierras in one Lakeside round of the ATCC than I've seen on the roads in my entire life.

Ditto the Volvo Turbo- the exact model eludes me.

And I couldn't cross the road without being hit by a Turbo Bluebird, a twin cam Celica or Gemini, a 13B RX7

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by chavez

And I couldn't cross the road without being hit by a Turbo Bluebird, a twin cam Celica or Gemini, a 13B RX7

but they were gone by the end, irrelevant to the series, replaced by cars that we didnt see

[Axeman444]

i think at the time, because they were up there with the fastest cars at the time, then they were spectacular.

The problem is for people who have only come into the motorsport scene in the V8SC era and are now looking back via Youtube etc, compare the speed the V8SC's are capable of to the Grp A & Grp C, then the Grp A & Grp C cars look slow, but at the time they definitely were not

[Oran Park Forever]

"Naive"- showing a lack of experience, wisdom or judgement.

Oxford Dictionary


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[Stand21]

Originally Posted by Oran Park Forever

"Naive"- showing a lack of experience, wisdom or judgement.

Oxford Dictionary


.

Hehe.....classic!