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22 Oct 2009, 09:13 (Ref:2566932) | #1 | ||
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HTP, FIA, EDA? Papers, what are they
Can someone explain what these terms and any others regarding papers for historic race cars mean and what type of cars and years are eligible for each?
This stems from one or two of the treads regarding bent cars, straight cars and any other cars I keep seeing pop up, plus my mate runs a fairly modern BMW in so called historic racing (Al Weyman's lot) and I wondered how this and many other modern cars are eligible. |
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22 Oct 2009, 09:25 (Ref:2566940) | #2 | ||
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22 Oct 2009, 09:50 (Ref:2566952) | #3 | ||
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so do they not apply to post-1965 cars then?
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22 Oct 2009, 09:58 (Ref:2566958) | #4 | ||
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HTP serves for all Historics and beyond 66.Presumably up to 90 but without any end date as this changes year on year.
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22 Oct 2009, 10:00 (Ref:2566960) | #5 | ||
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Living the dream,Chief instruktor and racing on the worlds best circuits-The Nordschleife and Spa.Getting to drive the worlds best cars-someone has to do it, so glad its me. |
22 Oct 2009, 10:39 (Ref:2566978) | #6 | ||
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In our 'lot' we are IMHO a whole lot more sensible and the car does not have to be an 'original' at all. In other words if you wanted to race a Lotus Cortina you can simply use a 2 door 1300 base model shell and stick the required componetry in the thing and race it as an LC as I am sure is happening in the other more
'prestigious' championships anyhow but possibly in a more clandestine way. There is a requirement that either the car model and/or component had to have had 5000 made in any one year or have been homologated as such but even that at the committee's discretion can be altered for example the inclusion of some Jaguar models. Its called flexibility but NOT a free for all and I think it works also some no longer available components like C/R Avenger gearboxes are allowed to be substitured with a Ford unit etc etc. |
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22 Oct 2009, 11:08 (Ref:2567003) | #7 | ||
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Quote:
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22 Oct 2009, 11:33 (Ref:2567017) | #8 | ||
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Now I have a question for Mr Hall
Was about to buy a 50's Sports Car last month when I found it was not acceptable for HTP's. The car was of a very well known manufacturer but it was the one with a different engine than the others manufactured. It raced in California but not aware of race history in Europe. Was told that papers could not be issued for car as no international race history. Car was one covered and driven by Jenks in period. No argument its real but what other parameters are used for agreeing to the papers. Didn't buy the car because of the situation ,assume I could change motor to same as others in series but that would spoil the history of this actual car.Thought the whole idea was to preserve history not mess it up? Is it possible to take a pragmatic view. |
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john ruston |
22 Oct 2009, 11:36 (Ref:2567021) | #9 | ||
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Bit like a Griff then?
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22 Oct 2009, 12:21 (Ref:2567061) | #10 | ||
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This was a real steel car rather than one of those plastic things!
Whats the problem with Griff |
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john ruston |
22 Oct 2009, 13:00 (Ref:2567092) | #11 | ||
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According to Mike Mooney,there is no international comp history,he should know!
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22 Oct 2009, 13:33 (Ref:2567108) | #12 | ||
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Appendix K applies to cars which are either original competition cars, or cars built to exactly the same specification as models with international competition history complying with the International rules of the period. I quote from the good book. Sadly the concept of pragmatism within the echelons of authority at FIA is entirely alien. In ''The good old days'' it was possible to take a view, but nowadays the whole is driven by a different agenda. My strictly personal view is that an overview of good sense should prevail but sadly..... |
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22 Oct 2009, 13:47 (Ref:2567112) | #13 | ||
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Thanks Jeremy.Can I assume that the events run in California were not international?
The rules state that if I change motor I would get HTP's which distracts from its History ,amazing! How do they judge Pre War cars?By the same rules and could Brooklands be considered international? Just thinking out loud. |
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22 Oct 2009, 14:21 (Ref:2567130) | #14 | |
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[QUOTE=Jeremy Hall;2567108]Appendix K applies to cars which are either original competition cars, or cars built to exactly the same specification as models with international competition history complying with the International rules of the period.
QUOTE] My mother tongue is not English so maybe I misunderstand the meaning of EITHER, the comma, and OR in the quote above, but the way I read it, the requirement for international competition history does not apply to [U]original competition cars, i.e if the car in question had an odd engine originally, than it should be eligible for an HTP, or... |
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22 Oct 2009, 15:22 (Ref:2567163) | #15 | |||
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22 Oct 2009, 15:33 (Ref:2567168) | #16 | ||
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As I understand it, it is intended to cover cars built from new shells but to the specification of the original competition version. In other words a Mk1 Capri shell could be built into a RS2300/2600 or even a 3500 but it must be built to exactly the same spec as the original competition version.
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22 Oct 2009, 15:51 (Ref:2567181) | #17 | ||
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If I remember correctly, one FIA inspector managed to block the issuance of an HTP for a Formula Junior a number of years ago, since the owner could not prove that his car (a one-off) had participated in a race listed in the international calender in period. He actually showed that it had participated in an international race (Djurgårdsloppet in Helsinki) but was still denied the papers, since he could not prove that the race was actually listed as international even though there were lots of non-Finnish participants. To me it sounded like some personal vendetta, but maybe it was according to the FIA rules |
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22 Oct 2009, 15:58 (Ref:2567187) | #18 | ||
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Yes, but the bit we are reading is just about the specification of the car not whether it has international comp history. As it happens I think that bit about international competition is somewhat daft but I can see the point. As Jeremy says, a bit of reality would be a good thing.
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22 Oct 2009, 16:11 (Ref:2567196) | #19 | ||
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The original car was a mid 50's Sports .In those days there were few international races just the odd club job throughout Europe.Many of the fledgling races stopped in 55 after Le Mans.A non thinking judgement call would prevent the issuing of papers with the car in its original form based on the rules as written but change it and you can have them.I would have thought that keeping the History would be so much more sensible.What would have Jenks made of that?
Is there any form of appeal? |
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22 Oct 2009, 16:16 (Ref:2567205) | #20 | ||
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As you say, how many international events were there and what kind of cars took part?
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22 Oct 2009, 16:17 (Ref:2567208) | #21 | |||
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22 Oct 2009, 16:22 (Ref:2567212) | #22 | |||
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22 Oct 2009, 16:26 (Ref:2567217) | #23 | ||
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Well thats one thing we agree on Tim, why that date indeed. It has actually been explained here before but I did'nt really grasp what they were on about. something about some form of competion changing, personally I think its to keep the 1st gen Camaro out as it would make the Mustang old news overnight (actually I say this tounge in cheek but maybe an element of truth) but it has also been explained to me within CTCRC that it would actully let the feared Mk1 Escort in, now that would really upset the apple cart wouldnt it? Can you imagine all the Angleboxes, Cortinas inc. LC's becoming obsolete overnight! You only have to look at CTCRC Pre 74's that I race in, more or less dominated by the Mk 1 RS2000.
Last edited by Al Weyman; 22 Oct 2009 at 16:32. |
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22 Oct 2009, 16:27 (Ref:2567218) | #24 | ||
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Six hr is 65 Tim,but the Eau Rouge Trophy is I believe 72.65 is period F but the six hr is upto that date.
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22 Oct 2009, 16:32 (Ref:2567221) | #25 | |||
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It would still not allow the RS1600 into the CTCRC because that was a Group 2 car and is not eligible for Post historics or Group 1 so the feared Mk1 Escort has to be the 1600 GT which runs as I recall. As to the big yanks, they ran as Group 1 after 69 but before were Group 5. But even so that has nothing to do with the HTP which could still be got for the car built to a specific group/class. |
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