[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[Félix]

Originally Posted by AGD

It's a very intriguing option. I like it better than the current rules. How much controversy would their be in determining the energy content of each fuel?

Energy content would be pretty easy to calculate, they would only have to be careful and analyze the actual fuel the race cars use - because it's not quite pump fuel, especially racing diesel I think.

But using only that criteria brings another issue: diesel is inherently more efficient than petrol by a few percentage points. It revs slower, the burns more efficiently... diesels would still have a decisive advantage, but this time because of the very philosophy of the rules as opposed to the current situation where the restrictor/boost tables are meant to make different engine types equal. Turbochargers and direct injection would also become mandatory for entrants who seriously want to have a shot because extra power would be directly linked to how much fuel one can save over a non-optimized baseline figure (fuel saved of course equals room for more power). Hybrid systems would also help gaining a bit of efficiency and would thus be needed to have the ideal powertrain.

Privateers, even if they added a KERS system to their Judds, would still lag behind the
highly optimized (and costly) systems the manufacturers would use, but this time that would be because it would be the very intent of the rules. That's unless another dimension is added to the rules to give them some hope of being competitive without spending 50 million dollars for all the gizmos that help them gain the 5%-10% efficiency richer teams will always have. But then we're back to the equalization that already generated a hundred pages of discussion here and God knows it's tricky to get it right...

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Félix

But using only that criteria brings another issue: diesel is inherently more efficient than petrol by a few percentage points. It revs slower, the burns more efficiently... diesels would still have a decisive advantage, but this time because of the very philosophy of the rules as opposed to the current situation where the restrictor/boost tables are meant to make different engine types equal.

This aspect has already been taken care of in the current regulations. Diesels have a smaller fuel tank just because of this, and next year there will be another reduction.

[ubrben]

Good post from Felix - I think it highlights the issues that would still remain even if you had an energy flow restriction.

I think the ACO's ideal scenario is 5 or so OEMs in LMP1 under an energy flow formulae throwing technology at it. The privateers would either stay in LMP2 or run satellite OEM cars a la Oreca Peugeot.

To be honest I think that would be the best outcome, but the F1 engine regs that are on the horizon mean manufacturers can go in that direction too.

If you only have 2 OEMs and a bunch of privateers in LMP1 (as we do now) I think the best solution is to make a proper engineering study and make some robust assumptions about thermal efficiency, friction, etc and frame the fuel tank capacities, etc in such a way that there's more equality between the technologies. The reason people assume it's so hard is the current situation, which in reality is purely a political calculation.

Ben

[henk4]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

I'm not so sure you'll have cars coasting around all the time at the end of the race. Safety Cars during the race will slow the pace way down, so at the end, they can go as fast as they want.

Of course, the teams may factor in a safety car into the fuel strategy, but they could only really factory in one, because there was only one safety car period in the 2008 race.

So you get a couple safety cars, especially long ones like this year, and it should be full throttle to the end.

Bummer, I forgot to take into account the devastating effect safety cars have on modern racing....

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by ubrben

I think the ACO's ideal scenario is 5 or so OEMs in LMP1 under an energy flow formulae throwing technology at it. The privateers would either stay in LMP2 or run satellite OEM cars a la Oreca Peugeot.

The situation look quite promosing at the moment. Audi and Peugeot appear to stay in LMP racing for the long term. Toyota has just announced their return in 2012 and Porsche has commited to return in 2014.

[Félix]

Originally Posted by henk4

This aspect has already been taken care of in the current regulations. Diesels have a smaller fuel tank just because of this, and next year there will be another reduction.

No, that's not what I mean. Petrol engines have approx. 35% efficiency. Diesels are closer to 40%. Give them the same amount of energy and one inherently uses it more efficiently than the other. That means that the more efficient engine can either make the same power as the inferior one whilst using less fuel (energy), or make more power whilst using the same amount of fuel (energy). Imagine a drag race between 2 cars of equal power: if one has a more efficient engine, it will use less energy (fuel) than the other. And that energy saving can be turned into extra power if maximum power is not policed like it is now (right now the maximum volume of intake air is limited, thus limiting maximum power - if the equivalency between engine types is really well done). The way to establish a level playing field would be to handicap technologies with superior efficiency with slightly reduced energy amounts - and I'm not sure we want to go there.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The situation look quite promosing at the moment. Audi and Peugeot appear to stay in LMP racing for the long term. Toyota has just announced their return in 2012 and Porsche has commited to return in 2014.

And Toyota's announcement puts major pressure on Honda and especially Nissan. It might just be what they needed to finally step up their game.

I wouldn't be surprised to see five manufacturers on the grid in 2014.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Félix

No, that's not what I mean. Petrol engines have approx. 35% efficiency. Diesels are closer to 40%.

Exactly, and that is why the amount of energy going into a diesel car has been put on the same level as that of the petrol car, just by giving them less fuel/smaller tanks.

[Félix]

Originally Posted by henk4

Exactly, and that is why the amount of energy going into a diesel car has been put on the same level as that of the petrol car, just by giving them less fuel/smaller tanks.

But they use the energy better, thus they can extract more power. It's an edge privateers probably will be even less able to afford than now.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Félix

But they use the energy better, thus they can extract more power. It's an edge privateers probably will be even less able to afford than now.

ah, now I see your point, not only diesel contains more kilojoules, but it also does not need the high revs a petrol engine requires, although I guess that a blown petrol engine would already be a step in the right direction.
You say that diesel burns more completey, any idea by how much compared to petrol?

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by Acid09

I wouldn't be surprised to see five manufacturers on the grid in 2014.

I will be surprised if not! And my bet is more than 5

[Félix]

Originally Posted by henk4

ah, now I see your point, not only diesel contains more kilojoules, but it also does not need the high revs a petrol engine requires, although I guess that a blown petrol engine would already be a step in the right direction.
You say that diesel burns more completey, any idea by how much compared to petrol?

Internal combustion engines are VERY inefficient anyway. The numbers I've seen thrown around for petrol engines is in the 30%'s, 35-37% maximum, probably for a turbo engine with direct fuel injection. Diesels are 40-42% I think. That can give diesels as much as a 10% efficiency edge over petrol engines. You can of course add hybrid strategies on top of both to gain another chunk of efficiency. But $$$$.

That's just from the top of my head; some other members certainly know more about the finer details.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Acid09

And Toyota's announcement puts major pressure on Honda and especially Nissan. It might just be what they needed to finally step up their game.

I wouldn't be surprised to see five manufacturers on the grid in 2014.

As De Chaunac explained, given the level of investment and technical knowhow involved, it's in the best interests of the sport for manufactuers to supply engines ala F1, or full customer cars.

[wolfhound]

With a limited amount of fuel available energy recovery under braking will become very important. This recovered energy can then be used for acceleration out of the corner. This area is the one that potentially offers the greatest area for development. All that is required is a short term energy stotage system that can store large amounts of energy (super capacitors?). The overall efficiency of the engine may not be as important once it is within a few percentage points of the best engine. Packaging of the system will also be critical as the front axle is where there is large energy recovery potential requiring a drive train. Conventional brakes could also become a thing of the past if all the braking can be used by the energy recovery system.

[lms]

Originally Posted by JAG

As De Chaunac explained, given the level of investment and technical knowhow involved, it's in the best interests of the sport for manufactuers to supply engines ala F1

I would love to see that happen.

[MitchZ06]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

....very important. This recovered energy can then be used for acceleration out of the corner. This area is the one that potentially offers the ....

It has been stated that only once past 120km/h can electric power be used for propulsion.

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

It has been stated that only once past 120km/h can electric power be used for propulsion.

Right, and that is about 75 mph. At Le Mans, I thought the LMP1s took the 1st and 2nd chicanes on the Mulsanne at about 100mph? So they would already be able use it there to launch off the corners.

Isn't the slowest corner on the track, Arnage, which they take at about 60mph? So I guess LMP1s could use it off of almost every corner (and then only a couple seconds after Arnage).

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

It has been stated that only once past 120km/h can electric power be used for propulsion.

For the same reason that KERS is used in F1 only past a certain speed, they are still limited by grip in how much power they can apply to the wheels under a certain speed without spinning it all away.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

It has been stated that only once past 120km/h can electric power be used for propulsion.

That new rule only applies to hybrid systems that drive the front wheels. The reasoning is that this prohibits the hybrid system from being used as driving aid, e.g., 4WD in wet conditions.

Furthermore, when we talk about the 2014 rules the hybrid system will be completely free. So systems like the one used in the hybrid Toyota Supra will be allowed: electric generator in both front wheels and one electric motor/generator connected to the rear axle (i.e., gearbox).

[wolfhound]

We also have to remember that energy recovery is only at the start of its development the IC engine has been around for over a hundred years.

The types of systems we see now will probably be very outdated in 5 years time.

[TF110]

Toyota is on top of the hybrid powertrain options. I suspect they'll have something trick up their sleeves next year. Even if it's just a 'mild' hybrid compared to what COULD be done.

[ubrben]

Nice little summary on MC:

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newssept11.html

More air = more fuel burnt = more power...

Ben

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by ubrben

More air = more fuel burnt = more power...

Some small remarks:
1) Knighty calculated that the difference in mass air flow between a diesel engine (1307 Kg/h) and a NA petrol engine (1173 kg/h) is 11%.
However, I was thought that (road) diesel engines typically run with lambda > 1.1. So diesel engines need at least 10% air to burn their fuel in order to avoid smoke.

2) Mike talks about the huge peak torque of diesel engines, at the flywheel. However, as I explained earlier, the torque number at the wheels is more relevant. The difference in final gear ratio between a NA petrol engine (max 10000+ rpm) and a diesel engine (max 5000 rpm) is at least a factor 2.

3) The smaller fuel tank is said to equate in 1 lap less per stint. However, because the engine power is reduced by 7%, the diesel engines will also consume 7% less fuel. So in practice, Audi and Peugeot might still be able to do the same number of laps on a full tank.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by ubrben

Nice little summary on MC:

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newssept11.html

More air = more fuel burnt = more power...

Ben

I'm not an engine expert, but that table in there makes it look like the diesels still have an advantage.

[gwyllion]

Mike's source suggests: "So we go into 2012 knowing the diesels will have an advantage of around 30 hp."

I am not sure how that calculation was made. If we assume 600 hp (diesel) vs 540 hp (petrol) for 2011, then a 7% reduction in power means 560 hp (diesel) vs 540 hp (petrol) for 2012. That is a difference of 20 hp, not 30 hp. Of course Audi and Peugeot will regain some of the lost power, if it does not impact their fuel consumption.

In defence of the ACO, their goal was to equalize the performance potential. So perhaps they believe that Toyota will be able to develop an engine that gets more power out of the rules (e.g., with direct fuel injection or turbocharging).