[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

This is really bad news for aesthetics. The cars look very tall as it is right now because of the narrow cockpits and tall fins. So a decrease of width by whole 10cm together with an increase of cockpit height will mean a dramatic change in this direction:

WTF is that !!! ..... looks like a DP on steroids

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by The Badger

WTF is that !!! ..... looks like a DP on steroids

Hyundai Pikes Peak "prototype".

[The Badger]

Thank God for that ..... I thought perhaps it was a rendering of some new rules disorder .

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Keeping the fins in the new regs is absolutely mind-boggling ridiculous.

Surely they can make rules that will keep the cars stuck to the ground without a BHF, which is surely just a temporary measure?

Sometimes the ACO infuriate me.

And even BHHs! Why not just reconsider the whole floor doctrine from scratch.

[lms]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

And even BHHs! Why not just reconsider the whole floor doctrine from scratch.

but would it stop the protos from getting airborne?

[Pandamasque]

From what I've read it's a relatively recent issue that started after flat floors were mandated.

[Tim the Grey]

Perhaps they could get Audi to fund some aero research on yaw and pitch sensitivity. That way, they can write sensible rules, and have them built into the cars...

[TF110]

There's more than just Audi. Other manufacturer's have say in the rules. I think they also know about how to keep cars on the ground during accidents.

[deggis]

The article has a lot more than just looks part ("a private consultation document" apparently has been leaked), but what comes to the fins, "The ACO/FIA document acknowledges that the shark fin is "totally unaesthetic". A reduction in size would be considered if sideways stability could be maintained".

Fuel-flow meters will replace air restrictors, but there will still be max displacements (5000cc mentioned for P1... for turbos and diesels too? Article doesn't say but it mentions that petrol would have 4-6 % larger fuel allocation).

They have realized that privateers can't afford energy recovery systems, so non-hybrid cars will have larger energy/fuel allocations. Also cars will be distinguished between "large ERS" (= Energy Recovery System), "intermediate ERS" and "non-ERS". 2xKERS (front & rear) would be a large one for example. Energy limit could go up to 8 MJ (remember, currently 0.5 MJ).

[Simmi]

Also in the accompanying Autosport article. Nigel Stepney of JRM HPD quoted as being happy with rules. A certain Wolfgang Ullrich decidedly unhappy.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by deggis

They have realized that privateers can't afford energy recovery systems, so non-hybrid cars will have larger energy/fuel allocations. Also cars will be distinguished between "large ERS" (= Energy Recovery System), "intermediate ERS" and "non-ERS". 2xKERS (front & rear) would be a large one for example. Energy limit could go up to 8 MJ (remember, currently 0.5 MJ).

To put this into perspective.

The 2014 Formula 1 rules allow a 120 kW electric motor connected to the conventional drive train (MGUK = Motor Generator Unit-Kinetic) and an electric motor connected the exhaust turbine (MGUH = Motor Generator Unit-Heat). During one lap 2 MJ can recovered using the MGUK and 4 MJ can be released using the MKUK. The difference has to recovered by the MGUH.

With the current LMP1 hybrid rules cars can release 0.5 MJ each braking zone. Le Mans has around 8 braking zones, so that is already the 4 MJ which F1 will allow in 2014.

That proposal for 8 MJ in LMP1 2014 is big step. It will be tricky to store that amount of energy with a flywheel accumulator and supercapacitors, which are already quite heavy for the current rules. I guess this means that Audi and Toyota will have to go for a battery solution, perhaps in combination with their current energy storage device.

[TF110]

Maybe multiple hybrid solutions in cars. Couple with a smaller capacity engine or lesser weight it can be achieved.

[gwyllion]

At Le Mans there are 8 moments where the hybrid system can be activated (see here). According to the leaked document 8 MJ can released every time, so that would mean 64 MJ in total per lap.

According to knighty's info there is only 34 seconds of combined breaking during one lap around the Le Mans circuit. In order the recover 64 MJ during this braking time, the electric motor/generators and the energy storage device would need be 2 MW!

That suggests that manufacturers will probably rely on energy recovery from the exhaust in combination with regenerative braking, like in F1 2014. Perhaps a KERS with supercapacitors or flywheel accumulator at the front axle and an exhaust ERS driving the rear axle with lithium battery. I can also imagine that a turbine generator driven by the exhaust gasses, could replace the traditional alternator.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

At Le Mans there are 8 moments where the hybrid system can be activated (see here). According to the leaked document 8 MJ can released every time, so that would mean 64 MJ in total per lap.

According to knighty's info there is only 34 seconds of combined breaking during one lap around the Le Mans circuit. In order the recover 64 MJ during this braking time, the electric motor/generators and the energy storage device would need be 2 MW!

That suggests that manufacturers will probably rely on energy recovery from the exhaust in combination with regenerative braking, like in F1 2014. Perhaps a KERS with supercapacitors or flywheel accumulator at the front axle and an exhaust ERS driving the rear axle with lithium battery. I can also imagine that a turbine generator driven by the exhaust gasses, could replace the traditional alternator.

A bit of your topic. But you mention so many electrical devices, that reliability will be sacrificed heavily in the first years!
Could we get a manufacture (like Audi) choosing to play safe and go slow with the hybrid adaptation in the cars?

[TF110]

Perhaps the electric power may be the main 'drive' with assist from a combustion engine? How would that play out?

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by CTD

Could we get a manufacture (like Audi) choosing to play safe and go slow with the hybrid adaptation in the cars?

It will indeed be interesting to see whether manufacturers will bet on two horses, like Audi is doing this year.

However, Audi and Toyota will have raced the current kinetic ERS for two years before the new rules come into play and Porsche is said do a full year of testing before entering the WEC in 2014. That gives them a reasonable amount of time to get their complex hybrid systems reliable.

[TF110]

Toyota has that EV Ring record as well, so they definitely got a lot going on with types of propulsion.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

That suggests that manufacturers will probably rely on energy recovery from the exhaust in combination with regenerative braking, like in F1 2014. Perhaps a KERS with supercapacitors or flywheel accumulator at the front axle and an exhaust ERS driving the rear axle with lithium battery.

I was curious to know how much energy can typically be recovered from the exhaust.

The best source that I found is the article from Ralph Koyess, who studied the performance advantage of (mechanical) turbo-compounding for the future F1 engine rules: http://www.cranfield.ac.uk/sas/pdf/e...undingpost.pdf. His simulations show a 7-8% improvement in power for the same fuel consumption.

I also found that up to 10% can be achieved with electric turbo-compounding.

We know that current LMP1 engines produce around 440 kW. If we use that number as starting point, an exhaust ERS can produce around 40 kW. For a 3m30 lap this means around 8 MJ of recovered energy.

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I can also imagine that a turbine generator driven by the exhaust gasses, could replace the traditional alternator.

Apparently CPT has a turbo generator in development as replacement for a conventional alternator: http://www.cpowert.com/products/tigers.htm

[gwyllion]

LMR #73 lists the main guidelines of 2014 rules. It mentions a new NA engine?

While Lindsay Owen-Jones, the president of the FIA’s WEC Commission, has kept mum about the 2014 regulations, Jean Todt revealed the main guidelines during his visit to Sebring: “They will embody a very strong future-oriented vision with more energy retrieval, lower fuel consumption and the introduction of a new normally aspirated engine. The regulations will have to evolve to show the pertinence of motor racing to society. Energy efficiency is as important an objective as cost reduction.” These regulations, which are currently being discussed with the people involved in endurance, will be publicly announced at the coming Le Mans 24 Hours in June.

source: http://www.vif-argent.fr/lmr73/#/11/

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

LMR #73 lists the main guidelines of 2014 rules. It mentions a new NA engine?
source: http://www.vif-argent.fr/lmr73/#/11/

I'm going to do bad things to FIA if they introduce a stock engine to Le Mans!

[gucom]

Originally Posted by CTD

I'm going to do bad things to FIA if they introduce a stock engine to Le Mans!

ditto. That would just kill endurance racing, there'd be no point in it anymore.

[TF110]

Maybe he meant a new type of engine as in type of fuel or non-fuel being used to be allowed, and not meaning it as 'spec'? Maybe a turbine powertrain, or the all electric Drayson? I'm just guessing.

[gwyllion]

"The introduction of a new normally aspirated engine" sounds like a conventional petrol engine.

Perhaps the rules will allow (continuously) variable valve timing, something that Baretzky was lobbying for. Or maybe Todt is hinting at a NA engine with exhaust ERS, like the Tokai University S-Hybrid system.

[deggis]

Definitely means just some new tech being allowed. Typical purposeful misunderstanding and over-reaction (bad, bad FIA etc).

Recent Autosport article (based on the leaked document, summarized in this thread too) is not aware of any single-spec engines and open concept has been the main point from the start.

[Pandamasque]

I guess he meant the introduction of radically different new regulations for ICEs.