[Team] McLaren - can they compete?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Honda explains root of its Formula 1 2017 troubles.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/130866

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I find it hard to believe anyone would jump in now to create a new power unit using the current specs. Regardless of how you feel about how Honda has run their program, if you look at the entire picture of long standing Mercedes dominance and a long steep climb uphill for established Ferrari and Renault programs (who are still climbing uphill even at this date), plus the fiasco of Honda... it just doesn't make any sense. Who would approve such madness?

I think the only one who "might" could be Porsche given their experience with a similar technical solution in WEC. But even then, they would have some level of learning curve, and for what? A short period before new regulations?

Richard

It begs the question why have Mercedes succeeded and yet, as you say, it's been a long steep climb uphill for established Ferrari and Renault programs?

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

McLaren-Renault would be a first. Then there are rumours that Cosworth are coming back in 2021, maybe McLaren could persuade them to come back sooner...

No because the engine formula will change and that should be Cosworths focus..

[VIVA GT]

I just can't go with this 'McLaren to use any PU other than Honda' story. I know that the Honda unit has been an abject (and very public) disaster, but there are so many negatives to using anything else that I can only see McLaren & Honda continuing again next season.
Apart from the understandable reluctance of any of the other manufacturers 'giving' their engine to an apparently well designed McLaren chassis and the possible embarrassment that could cause, surely Mercedes (for example) already supply the maximum number of customer teams, so that would need unanimous consent from all of the other teams to allow McLaren to use their lumps, so that's unlikely to say the least. Plus I was of the opinion that all teams had to register their PU supplier for the following season by the end of May the previous year? If that has already happened I cannot believe that this information wouldn't have leaked out by now, so we must assume it hasn't, and therefore, McLaren-Honda it is for next year again!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Honda explains root of its Formula 1 2017 troubles.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/130866

I have read that before and it does sum things up. Some of it is pretty much unforgivable IMHO. Basically with Honda getting it all together at the last second. But that is rehashing old news. The question is... what has Honda done since then to stop making stupid decisions (at the project management level) going forward? THAT is something I would love to hear vs. a recount of what went wrong from a technical perspective. And in general I don't buy into the concept of blaming Honda due to cultural issues (be it Honda, Japanese or both), etc. Of course everything (including culture) factors in somehow, but I think their problems are more fundamental and are solvable even if you buy into the cultural blame game.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

It begs the question why have Mercedes succeeded and yet, as you say, it's been a long steep climb uphill for established Ferrari and Renault programs?

Everyone has their opinions. I tend to believe that... while hard work "should" guarantee success, it does always work that way. I think Mercedes has worked VERY hard allocated plenty of resources ($) AND managed to find solutions that have worked. Other teams have just not been as successful for whatever reason. Mercedes likely started early, dumped money into this, and found a fast horse. As much as the other teams whip their own design teams, they just can't seem to catch up. It could be that there is no magic solution that is going to allow other teams to leap frog Mercedes. Maybe the best they can do is continue to eat into Mercedes lead? To continue with the horse race metaphor, Mercedes got out of the gate fast and nobody seems to be able to catch them.

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Plus I was of the opinion that all teams had to register their PU supplier for the following season by the end of May the previous year? If that has already happened I cannot believe that this information wouldn't have leaked out by now, so we must assume it hasn't, and therefore, McLaren-Honda it is for next year again!

My understanding is that they have said they will be using Honda next year. I expect there are hoops to jump through to undo that (some may be large). So never say never. But like you... I am leaning on Honda at McLaren for 2018.

Richard

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

It begs the question why have Mercedes succeeded and yet, as you say, it's been a long steep climb uphill for established Ferrari and Renault programs?

As Richard says above, it is partly because they had a head start, although that was on their commercial divisions. Their engineering teams had been working on a similar system prior to the FIA's mandate for the new PUs, and they brought some of those engineers in to the F1 racing team to assist with the project. I understand that the turbo layout that was specific to only the Mercedes PU was a product of the brains on the commercial side, not Brixworth.

And it should be noted that when Renault, with the backing of Ferrari, asked the FIA to delay the introduction of the new PUs, Mercedes was against the request as their unit was ready to go. This is possibly because they had been running similar power units on commercial test vehicles for some time, so that they were way ahead of the game.

[Adam43]

I went round HP engines a couple of years before the current engine formula and they had a version of the new engine on display. Obviously not showing anything radical (in case I nicked the idea for my B ), but it was clear from that and the talk that they had been looking at it for some time and were well down the development path. This was helped by the freeze on the current engines at the time.

It struck me at the time that everyone else was still discussing, whinging about or trying to change the engine regs while Merc were simply getting on with developing it.

Throwing it money at it is one thing, but Merc used time. They had lots of it relative to the others. It's rare in life, business or sport you get that advantage over others and they took full advantage.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

As Richard says above, it is partly because they had a head start, although that was on their commercial divisions. Their engineering teams had been working on a similar system prior to the FIA's mandate for the new PUs, and they brought some of those engineers in to the F1 racing team to assist with the project. I understand that the turbo layout that was specific to only the Mercedes PU was a product of the brains on the commercial side, not Brixworth.

And it should be noted that when Renault, with the backing of Ferrari, asked the FIA to delay the introduction of the new PUs, Mercedes was against the request as their unit was ready to go. This is possibly because they had been running similar power units on commercial test vehicles for some time, so that they were way ahead of the game.

So Mercedes' commercial division had already been working on something similar. That's the answer I was after. Thanks.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I find it hard to believe anyone would jump in now to create a new power unit using the current specs. Regardless of how you feel about how Honda has run their program, if you look at the entire picture of long standing Mercedes dominance and a long steep climb uphill for established Ferrari and Renault programs (who are still climbing uphill even at this date), plus the fiasco of Honda... it just doesn't make any sense. Who would approve such madness?

I think the only one who "might" could be Porsche given their experience with a similar technical solution in WEC. But even then, they would have some level of learning curve, and for what? A short period before new regulations?

Regarding McLaren and Honda. I dare not put much faith in any predictions right now. Maybe insiders know. My opinion is that...

Ferrari: Probably not. I just can't see Ferrari providing a competitive engine to someone like McLaren. And would McLaren want a hobbled Ferrari unit? I just don't see them having a good working relationship.

Renault: Maybe. But Renault has their own performance and reliability issues. And they also might be in the same category as Ferrari. McLaren with a works Renault engine would very likely outperform the factory Renault team.

Mercedes: Maybe. But again it would be a lesser solution than whatever Mercedes uses. Mercedes is probably less concerned about McLaren beating them with Mercedes power.

Honda: Probably. If forced to pick the likely path, I would say they may stay with Honda, but I wouldn't put much money on that bet. If anything... Honda does seem to be making slow, slow forward progress. But progress. If I was McLaren I would ask for a variety of concessions. Probably more visibility and a larger voice in the overall engine development process.

I think I have read reports that Honda feels they are now on par with the 2016 Honda unit. That is not a glowing endorsement, but it's better than where they were. McLaren/Honda recently did wet weather tire testing as part of the Pirelli test program. While they wouldn't have been allowed to run any development parts (engine or chassis) they could have used the test to work on engine mapping of the new spec.

Richard

Can Red Bull veto any move by Renault to supply McLaren?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Can Red Bull veto any move by Renault to supply McLaren?

I think you are asking if RBR has a veto clause in their agreement with Renault? Interesting question.

I haven't read up on the process for McLaren to switch in 2018 AFTER already having giving official notice of their selected power unit (as they have and have named Honda). Would that include all teams having to agree to the change (effectively giving any team veto power?) or is there some type of force majeure scenario that wouldn't require other team approval? The only force majeure scenario I can think of is if Honda leave F1 completely at end of 2017 (leaving McLaren with no solution). But I don't see that happening. I don't think McLaren wanting to leave Honda would qualify.

Richard

[insane014]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I have read that before and it does sum things up. Some of it is pretty much unforgivable IMHO. Basically with Honda getting it all together at the last second. But that is rehashing old news. The question is... what has Honda done since then to stop making stupid decisions (at the project management level) going forward? THAT is something I would love to hear vs. a recount of what went wrong from a technical perspective.

Much of those stupid decisions are McLaren's as well, actually it was all one giant fantasy of McLaren how unorthodox approach could translate into competitiveness on the highest grounds. They wanted to gamble all or nothing hoping they could outgun Mercedes at their own game within one season. Honda was the man power in that game.

That's why they wanted to bring Honda development to UK so they themselves could go ahead and try to turn their fantasy PU into reality once Honda failed. They think they can be better bosses to Honda staff and technology.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by insane014

Much of those stupid decisions are McLaren's as well, actually it was all one giant fantasy of McLaren how unorthodox approach could translate into competitiveness on the highest grounds. They wanted to gamble all or nothing hoping they could outgun Mercedes at their own game within one season. Honda was the man power in that game.

That's why they wanted to bring Honda development to UK so they themselves could go ahead and try to turn their fantasy PU into reality once Honda failed. They think they can be better bosses to Honda staff and technology.

I don't see it as a stupid decision at all. McLaren and Honda had a very successful partnership, from 1988 - '91 and Ron Dennis hoped he could could rekindle that. Plus it would initially be an exclusive partnership. Unfortunately it hasn't worked out, much to the chagrin of Honda and McLaren but hopefully they will get right.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by insane014

Much of those stupid decisions are McLaren's as well, actually it was all one giant fantasy of McLaren how unorthodox approach could translate into competitiveness on the highest grounds. They wanted to gamble all or nothing hoping they could outgun Mercedes at their own game within one season. Honda was the man power in that game.

That's why they wanted to bring Honda development to UK so they themselves could go ahead and try to turn their fantasy PU into reality once Honda failed. They think they can be better bosses to Honda staff and technology.

I actually wonder of all the singing and dancing around Mr Dennis' future at McLaren took the management team's eye off the ball, of being up Honda ALL the time to get the engine package cooking.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I think you are asking if RBR has a veto clause in their agreement with Renault? Interesting question.

I haven't read up on the process for McLaren to switch in 2018 AFTER already having giving official notice of their selected power unit (as they have and have named Honda). Would that include all teams having to agree to the change (effectively giving any team veto power?) or is there some type of force majeure scenario that wouldn't require other team approval? The only force majeure scenario I can think of is if Honda leave F1 completely at end of 2017 (leaving McLaren with no solution). But I don't see that happening. I don't think McLaren wanting to leave Honda would qualify.

Richard

Good questions... did the teams all need to agree to Brawn switching from Honda to Mercedes?

[F1Guy]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Good questions... did the teams all need to agree to Brawn switching from Honda to Mercedes?

No. As Brawn GP was a new entry for 2009.

Brawn GP was only registered as an entrant just 3 weeks before the first round in Australia. As a "new entry", FOTA (the now defunct Formula One Teams Association) had zero say in what engine Brawn GP could use. Brawn GP also paid no entry fees for the 2009 season. This was a special deal agreed to by the FiA and FOM, due to "exceptional circumstances".

In the background though, Honda Motor Company funded the entire 2009 season of Brawn GP, and it's staff. It's almost the 10 year anniversary of one of the biggest farcical moments in F1, and in world sports in general, when multinational Honda MC withdrew from F1 - then renamed the team as Brawn GP, still being funded entirely by Honda, who then went on to win both F1 championships as a privateer named Brawn GP - powered by a Mercedes engine!

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by F1Guy

No. As Brawn GP was a new entry for 2009.

Brawn GP was only registered as an entrant just 3 weeks before the first round in Australia. As a "new entry", FOTA (the now defunct Formula One Teams Association) had zero say in what engine Brawn GP could use. Brawn GP also paid no entry fees for the 2009 season. This was a special deal agreed to by the FiA and FOM, due to "exceptional circumstances".

In the background though, Honda Motor Company funded the entire 2009 season of Brawn GP, and it's staff. It's almost the 10 year anniversary of one of the biggest farcical moments in F1, and in world sports in general, when multinational Honda MC withdrew from F1 - then renamed the team as Brawn GP, still being funded entirely by Honda, who then went on to win both F1 championships as a privateer named Brawn GP - powered by a Mercedes engine!

I would have thought the entry was the one attached to the original Tyrrell Racing Organisation, that shifted to British American Racing ownership, to the HondaF1 entity, then onto BrawnGP

[insane014]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I don't see it as a stupid decision at all. McLaren and Honda had a very successful partnership, from 1988 - '91 and Ron Dennis hoped he could could rekindle that. Plus it would initially be an exclusive partnership. Unfortunately it hasn't worked out, much to the chagrin of Honda and McLaren but hopefully they will get right.

Of course they will get it right cause they are spending money and man hours like crazy. All of this fuss how horrible the package is just something to chit chat during the season. Even though its the bad press McLaren got so much more exposure because of it and if it turns into a success story it will be a story of the generation. Everybody is interested in team's progression cause there is an very active development. McLaren would never get that much exposure if they were running in the mid pack like Renault or Williams with leased engines.

I'm cheering for Alonso/McLaren/Honda package cause they work their ass off trying to make up for coming late to the party. The only thing I mind is the public blame game by Boullier. That's like Samsung blaming the battery manufacturer for Note 7 fiasco even though it was Samsung who gave battery specs to the manufacturer. It doesn't work like that and I'm glad that someone pointed the finger at him not to do that kind of stuff in public anymore.

In my opinion if they somehow match Red Bull by 2019 I would consider it a success cause current engine specs were rigged by Mercedes who even threatened to pull out of the caravan if those proposed specs didn't turn out to be official specs. That's whole another story of Mercedes having the technology ready, lobbying for it and then presenting it as remarkable outside the box thinking compared to other teams.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I don't see it as a stupid decision at all. McLaren and Honda had a very successful partnership, from 1988 - '91 and Ron Dennis hoped he could could rekindle that. Plus it would initially be an exclusive partnership. Unfortunately it hasn't worked out, much to the chagrin of Honda and McLaren but hopefully they will get right.

McLaren pinched the Honda engine supply from Williams, after they had the growing pains (and Spirit before them..) back in the '80's

This time, McLaren is the guinea pig...

[S griffin]

The main problem is after making good progress last season, it's been thrown away as they have become an embarrassment this season. They need to get their finger out soon

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

McLaren pinched the Honda engine supply from Williams, after they had the growing pains (and Spirit before them..) back in the '80's

This time, McLaren is the guinea pig...

I remember the Spirit-Honda well. It made its debut at the 1983 Race of Champions at Brands Hatch, which I went to. That was the last year they held the race.

[AdrianM]

Originally Posted by F1Guy

In the background though, Honda Motor Company funded the entire 2009 season of Brawn GP, and it's staff. It's almost the 10 year anniversary of one of the biggest farcical moments in F1, and in world sports in general, when multinational Honda MC withdrew from F1 - then renamed the team as Brawn GP, still being funded entirely by Honda, who then went on to win both F1 championships as a privateer named Brawn GP - powered by a Mercedes engine!

Funding couldn't have been very high seeing as how few spare parts they had and what they were paying Button.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by AdrianM

Funding couldn't have been very high seeing as how few spare parts they had and what they were paying Button.

They weren't throwing money at it, but they had no honour contracts.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by AdrianM

Funding couldn't have been very high seeing as how few spare parts they had and what they were paying Button.

According to this blog by Adam Cooper, which I found scouring the InterWeb:

"One intriguing number suggests that Honda paid the team a total of £92.5m during the year – a figure that almost matches up with the overall profit. It’s known that Honda bankrolled the team fully until March, and in effect paid for the development of the car, but presumably the rest was a ‘dowry’ to help keep the team going." Third paragraph.

https://adamcooperf1.com/2010/09/14/...rofit-in-2009/

[chillibowl]

presumably that Honda funding also paid for Brawn's engine supply for the year. certainly a bit of irony there given what Brawn went on to and what the team they ultimately became...dont know i would describe it as a farcical period though.

Honda saved a lot of staff in the process and gave second life to the ingenuity that was Super Aguri and did so without any credit. given what the team became i would say its one of the better stories in the last 10 years and something that speaks to the type of fraternity which F1 should try to aspire to.

anyways, Honda have sent a lot of money Mclaren's way...depending on what the break clauses are and how Mclaren have spent or saved that money, Honda might find themselves, indirectly at least, find themselves paying for a team to use someone else's engines....again!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

They weren't throwing money at it, but they had no honour contracts.

The way Honda conducted themselves when they pulled out of F1 is the greatest example of corporate values, responsibility and morality I have ever heard of, it was truly amazing!