Ricciardo vs Verstappen 2017

[HDTVKSS]

you can be as fast as you like but if you dont stop tagging ppl off the start line and keep with the high risk moves that will become a diminishing rate of return, you are going to get outscored.

they could have the god like ******* clone of Schumi and Senna in the car, but they wont win a WDC or WCC again until they have an engine on par with the Merc. that wont happen anytime soon.

[steve nielsen]

Originally Posted by wnut

Max needs to learn not to run into people, until he does so he will not beat Ricciardo over a season. I think there are also a few people who he will find a lot tougher to race against when they are not in contention for a title. What goes around comes around, and Max has got away with quite a bit this year, he won't be able to stick the nose of his car into a fifty fifty and expect to get away with it.

"That kid is dangerous, it wasn't worth it." Lewis

Will change rapidly.

Hamilton never called Max "dangerous" and Max will beat Daniel, it's very obvious he's faster over this season , the only reason Daniel has more points is plain bad luck Max had, there's a good reason it's 13-6 in qualifying at the moment, Max is the first teammate to beat Daniel in qualifying .

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

Hamilton never called Max "dangerous".

Except in this video https://www.sportvideos.tv/lewis-hamilton-that-kid-is-dangerous-so-it-wasnt-worth-the-risk/

Although it is debatable whether he meant dangerous in a potential crash way, or a risk to his result way.

[FAS33]

Only reason why Max crashed into Daniel because it’s the only way he can score more points.

Getting defeated 2 years consecutively results in irrational decision making.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by wnut

Because if Ricciardo does not improve his qualifying then he will play second fiddle to Max.

He already is. Just like Mr Webber, the fight is definitely on to beat his teammate, but there seems to be a political shift in RBR anointing Mr Verstappen as the holy grail, while Mr Ricciardo is ‘on the market’...

Personally, I think it would be awesome to see Mr Ricciardo in a McLaren Renault...

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

He already is. Just like Mr Webber, the fight is definitely on to beat his teammate, but there seems to be a political shift in RBR anointing Mr Verstappen as the holy grail, while Mr Ricciardo is ‘on the market’...

Personally, I think it would be awesome to see Mr Ricciardo in a McLaren Renault...

That would be a step back from where he is.Against Alonso which is no easier than against Verstappen.The only steps up are Mercedes and Ferrari.It is up to him to prove himself worthy in the first half of 2018.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Alan52

That would be a step back from where he is.Against Alonso which is no easier than against Verstappen.The only steps up are Mercedes and Ferrari.It is up to him to prove himself worthy in the first half of 2018.

I would have thought 4th in the WDC with an engine not quite up to snuff would show what the skill level is like.

Certainly the driving in traffic shows the skill of the bloke, without destroying the car....

Red Bull is a dead end for Mr Ricciardo as long as he is teamed with the anointed one...

[Akrapovic]

Is there any solid evidence that RBR prefer Max over Dan? And if there is, is there a good reason for that?

Last time RBR preferred one driver, that one won 4 world titles whilst the other struggled to be runner up.

[bella]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Is there any solid evidence that RBR prefer Max over Dan? And if there is, is there a good reason for that?

Last time RBR preferred one driver, that one won 4 world titles whilst the other struggled to be runner up.

aside from verstappen signing a long contract and it making everyone paranoid, it seems to stem from a couple of races ago when said dutchman got the upgraded engine over ricciardo because he suffered a failure first?

which seems a bit daft to me because it was a fair way of deciding who got their hands on it first.

[Akrapovic]

I thought that Verstappen got offered the long contract to stop someone else getting him.

And yeah, surely you should just give the engine to whoever requires it first? If you held it back when Max needed an engine and gave it to Dan then it'd be far worse.

Seems like a lot of this is fabricated because Max is doing rather well. We've been here before with RBR, only a few years ago.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Is there any solid evidence that RBR prefer Max over Dan? And if there is, is there a good reason for that?

Last time RBR preferred one driver, that one won 4 world titles whilst the other struggled to be runner up.

It's not solid evidence, but the tone of comments regarding the two drivers seems to differ.

Horner has said they will build the Red Bull team around Verstappen, and that without the reliability issues he would be third in the title (and therefore is better than Daniel ):

'The obvious thing is to build a team around you. But it’s down to us to provide him with a competitive car'

'He’s had four mechanical issues, all engine problems. If you look at the points lost, he should be sitting a pretty close third in the championship'

'what’s exciting is what the future holds for him'

Whereas Horner's comments about Ricciardo were less optimistic about the future:

'Ricciardo has been around long enough to know and he was making hay while the sun shone'

'The next move that he makes at 28 years of age is a very important one for him'

'He knows the intention very clearly, and I’ve discussed it with him, is that we want him within the team.'

It all seems to read that Verstappen is the future, and the team will be focussed on giving him the best chance of a WDC. Whereas Ricciardo is seen as a member of the team, not the main focus for results.
This is backed up by more recent comments coming out of the Red Bull garage:

'Max's talent is obvious, he is capable of challenging for the championship [...] We've done it before [with Seb] and our aim is to do it again [with Max]'

Marko:
'[Red Bull] have to look for alternatives [for Ricciardo as he is] already on the market'

Horner:
'Asked what would happen if Ricciardo decided to leave, Horner said Red Bull were prepared for that.
“That’s why we kept Carlos Sainz on loan, that’s why we have options around us.'

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

It's not solid evidence, but the tone of comments regarding the two drivers seems to differ.

Horner has said they will build the Red Bull team around Verstappen, and that without the reliability issues he would be third in the title (and therefore is better than Daniel ):

'The obvious thing is to build a team around you. But it’s down to us to provide him with a competitive car'

'He’s had four mechanical issues, all engine problems. If you look at the points lost, he should be sitting a pretty close third in the championship'

'what’s exciting is what the future holds for him'

Whereas Horner's comments about Ricciardo were less optimistic about the future:

'Ricciardo has been around long enough to know and he was making hay while the sun shone'

'The next move that he makes at 28 years of age is a very important one for him'

'He knows the intention very clearly, and I’ve discussed it with him, is that we want him within the team.'

It all seems to read that Verstappen is the future, and the team will be focussed on giving him the best chance of a WDC. Whereas Ricciardo is seen as a member of the team, not the main focus for results.
This is backed up by more recent comments coming out of the Red Bull garage:

'Max's talent is obvious, he is capable of challenging for the championship [...] We've done it before [with Seb] and our aim is to do it again [with Max]'

Marko:
'[Red Bull] have to look for alternatives [for Ricciardo as he is] already on the market'

Horner:
'Asked what would happen if Ricciardo decided to leave, Horner said Red Bull were prepared for that.
“That’s why we kept Carlos Sainz on loan, that’s why we have options around us.'

I got from that at the time that the love for Mr Ricciardo had either gone entirely, or on the way to a full house departure....

The engine thing is still crazy. One fella had a shot at the time to be 3rd in the WDC and the ‘hot’ engine ended up with the other fella.

Time to go Mr Ricciardo..

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

I got from that at the time that the love for Mr Ricciardo had either gone entirely, or on the way to a full house departure....

The engine thing is still crazy. One fella had a shot at the time to be 3rd in the WDC and the ‘hot’ engine ended up with the other fella.

Time to go Mr Ricciardo..

Yeah, two drivers on the books.

One of them you are busting a gut to sign a long contract, doing everything possible to keep them happy and talking about as a future champion.

The other is described as due a move, and that you have an alternative lined up for.

It seems clear where the favour lies.

[F1Guy]

A few pages back in this thread I posted an article from F1.com that stated Helmut Marko had said the teams ambition was to make Verstappen the youngest champion is F1 history.

Prior to Marko's comments, Mateschitz had openly admitted the same HERE.

Dietrich Mateschitz: "Do you know what my ultimate dream is in formula one? That Max is the youngest world champion in history with Red Bull. We have two more years to achieve that goal."

It's clear where RBR's focus will be for the next two years. And the fact that RBR have openly admitted that they are chasing the "youngest champion in history" record makes it 100% certain that Ricciardo will be playing second fiddle to Verstappen in '18 and '19. If RBR had said they will do everything possible to win their 5th drivers championship in the next two years, that may have been a better way to disguise their favouritism towards Max. But RBR were upfront in mentioning that Max will be priority while they chase the youngest F1 champion record. Because obviously - they cannot do that with Daniel. What they can do with Daniel however, is make sure he is a tenth (or two) slower than Max. Very easy to achieve this without raising an eyebrow. Just as RBR did with Webber.

[S griffin]

It's no wonder Danny is thinking of leaving, it will probably be best for him, as he is at least as good as Max. Both drivers no doubt are great entertainment for the sport

[FAS33]

Easy win for Dan.

[peterelise]

With the season complete the following facts are evident:

- VER suffered 7 DNFs in the first 14 races for a very disrupted start to the season but with a clean run since Malaysia has scored the equal top points with Hamilton, scoring two 1st places, a 2nd place, a 4th and a couple of 5ths.
- Over the full season VER finished on the podium 4 times out of 13 finishes (31% of the time) and had an average finishing position of 4.23 for average points of 12.9 per race.
- RIC suffered 6 DNFs with a cluster of 3 in the last 4 races.
- Over the full season RIC finished on the podium 9 times out of 14 finishes (64% of the time) and had an average finishing position of 3.43 for average points of 14.3 (ie outscoring VER by 1.4 points per race over the full season).
- RIC’s podium percentage is remarkable in the 3rd best car and is comparable to VET (13 podiums out of 18 finishes for 72%) and HAM (13 out of 20 finishes for 65%) and BOT (13 out of 19 finishes for 68%) and well ahead of RAI (7 podiums out of 16 finishes for 44%). This stat probably best highlights RIC’s strength of realising most of car’s potential on Sunday.
- In the 7 races VER & RIC both finished, VER won 5 – 2, outscoring RIC by 91 points to 87.
- In qualifying head to head, there was a clear advantage to VER by 13 – 7 with an average gap of .135 (excluding where one or other of them failed to set a representative time because of equipment failure or crash). Interestingly, at the start of the year and at the end of the year they were much better matched (up until the 9th race in Austria they were 5-4 in VER’s favour and in the last 5 since Japan they were 3-2 in RIC’s favour). It was the stretch from Silverstone (where RIC went out of Q1 with turbo failure) through to Malaysia inclusive where VER won the qualifying battle 6-0 (but worth noting in this period, in 3 of those qualifying battles the difference was no more than 5 hundredths and in 1 RIC had suffered turbo failure and went out in Q1).
- Over the full season in 2017, RIC outscored VER by 200 to 168. Even if VER had one less DNF (so they both had 6) and managed to finish first in that race, he still wouldn’t have beaten Dan in the points table. This follows their time together in 2016 where RIC outscored VER by 220 to 191 in the races they were both in the same car. Looking at the 2016 results compared to 2017 suggests that VER is improving (he was outqualified last year by 11-6 with an average gap of 0.228 and outraced last year when they both finished by 9-7 and a total of 14 points)

All of this suggests to me that these two remain exceedingly closely matched but looking at the trend from last year to this year, and VER’s underlying pace, I can see why Red Bull have chosen to build the team around him going forward.

RIC remains my personal favourite and I will continue to point out that he has beaten VER in 100% of the seasons they have been in the same car (unless of course VER manages to beat him for the first time next year)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by FAS33

Easy win for Dan.

Even the F1 team bosses can see that Max is the better driver....

Originally Posted by steve_r

F1 team bosses have voted on the drivers of the year.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/top-10-grand-prix-drivers-team-principals-poll-986695/

[F1Guy]

And Verstappen also just took the award for Personality Of The Year at the FiA Gala. An award most were expecting Ricciardo to take home.


Looks like the bias against Ricciardo has already begun...

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by F1Guy

Looks like the bias against Ricciardo has already begun...

It's not bias, but recognition of the plain truth....

[S griffin]

I am impressed by how Max didn't let himself get down after so much bad luck and DNFs out of his control and showed what should have been at the end of the season

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I am impressed by how Max didn't let himself get down after so much bad luck and DNFs out of his control and showed what should have been at the end of the season

If there were any doubts about the toughness of Max's character they were answered in the last few months of the season.Post Singapore he was mega.

[FAS33]

Max Verstappen has a boring personality and gets his charisma from Dan. No wonder Dan beat Max in points again.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by FAS33

Max Verstappen has a boring personality and gets his charisma from Dan. No wonder Dan beat Max in points again.

When did they start handing out points for personality and charisma?

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

When did they start handing out points for personality and charisma?

you replied to a comment about the award. 😂😂😂