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Old 4 Mar 2018, 00:10 (Ref:3805588)   #26
Ospi
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Originally Posted by Mixer View Post
Who has measured this disparity?

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All I known is the amount of extra ballast the ZB teams are running VS the old car, assuming the old car was very similar to the Ford, it's not an insignificant amount, certainly more than enough in a sport where hundredths of seconds count.

As mentioned above though we still don't know the cog disparities but a hinge higher won't offset the blocks of lead down low.

Fun and games.
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Old 4 Mar 2018, 00:10 (Ref:3805589)   #27
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Big difference for me watching them all is just how effective the 888 damper program is - those things just glide over the bumps/kerbs compared to the other teams. Maybe the other teams need to spend more time on their damper programs rather than moaning about supposed CoG differences?
This is a good point!

Routine 888 victories are very tiresome, and the sooner there is more variety the better! Why must the other teams be so incompetent.
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Old 4 Mar 2018, 00:10 (Ref:3805590)   #28
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Mixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Complaining after one race is pure sour grapes. People made the same complaint about the Volvo.

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Old 4 Mar 2018, 00:21 (Ref:3805592)   #29
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The center of mass is the mean position of the mass in an object. Then there's the center of gravity, which is the point where gravity appears to act. For many objects, these two points are in exactly the same place. But they're only the same when the gravitational field is uniform across an object.
We're concerned with the CENTRE OF MASS, people. Let's get it right. And clue Skaife and Crompton in too, if you would, please.

The centre of gravity will matter absolutely nil in terms of vehicle dynamics... HOWEVER, the positioning of centre of mass, and the mass moment of inertia, will make significant differences when lateral loads are applied, and particularly when changing direction etc.
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Old 4 Mar 2018, 00:42 (Ref:3805595)   #30
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We're concerned with the CENTRE OF MASS, people. Let's get it right. And clue Skaife and Crompton in too, if you would, please.

The centre of gravity will matter absolutely nil in terms of vehicle dynamics... HOWEVER, the positioning of centre of mass, and the mass moment of inertia, will make significant differences when lateral loads are applied, and particularly when changing direction etc.
I've never heard of this, all the text books etc refer to the COG. Where can I read about COM being the term which must be used for vehicle dynamics? On earth where we race cars they are the same value anyway, no?
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Old 4 Mar 2018, 00:42 (Ref:3805596)   #31
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If you were a manufacturer keen on entering the series, who would you offer a contract to?
Triple 8 or Penske. No one else. Dane has more say in the category than most and can make things happen. Penske have massive resources back in the US.
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Old 4 Mar 2018, 00:45 (Ref:3805597)   #32
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I've never heard of this, all the text books etc refer to the COG. Where can I read about COM being the term which must be used for vehicle dynamics?
in any mechanical engineering classroom, dating back at least 28 years, textboosk etc, where you're discussing applied mechanics.

Ask yourself this: is the issue how the car is affected by gravity, or how it applies its mass around an axis of rotation (in this case, ostensibly the suspension's roll centres).
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Old 4 Mar 2018, 00:56 (Ref:3805598)   #33
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in any mechanical engineering classroom, dating back at least 28 years, textboosk etc, where you're discussing applied mechanics.

Ask yourself this: is the issue how the car is affected by gravity, or how it applies its mass around an axis of rotation (in this case, ostensibly the suspension's roll centres).
Yes I understand, moreso just intrigued that the major vehicle dynamics texts refer to it as COG instead (for example Milliken), I assume due to in this case the values being interchangeable although the terminology may be incorrectly used.
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Old 4 Mar 2018, 01:05 (Ref:3805599)   #34
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Mixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Scotty Mac on pole today..

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Old 4 Mar 2018, 01:10 (Ref:3805601)   #35
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I'm surprised all the teams are up in arms about Michael Caruso with his weight advantage and all! /s
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Old 4 Mar 2018, 01:12 (Ref:3805603)   #36
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I'm surprised all the teams are up in arms about Michael Caruso with his weight advantage and all! /s
that'll be today's parity soapbox... I note Skaife and Crompton are currently busily downplaying the idea that there's a manufacturer parity imbalance...
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Old 4 Mar 2018, 01:18 (Ref:3805604)   #37
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Yes I understand, moreso just intrigued that the major vehicle dynamics texts refer to it as COG instead (for example Milliken), I assume due to in this case the values being interchangeable although the terminology may be incorrectly used.
In effect, the terms wouldn't be interchangeable, due to the differing axes of application between pure gravity, and actual forces of acceleration due to movement of the mass moment of inertia)...

...biggest problem is usually that somebody looking to sound impressive (like a commentator) doesnt think that the more correct terms don't sound technical enough and so they use whatever they like, and the rest of the plebs figure that "it's on tv/facebook therefore it must be true". (we used to joke that "turbulation" sounded far more impressive than mere "turbulence" when discussing fluid dynamics, to the point we wore the lecturer down after 1 & 1/2 semesters, and he accidentally used our pet word. He gave us the rounds of the table for that)
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Old 4 Mar 2018, 01:57 (Ref:3805606)   #38
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888 lock out the front row today...
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Old 4 Mar 2018, 02:03 (Ref:3805608)   #39
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Scotty Mac on pole today..

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Which Red Bull is Scotty in?
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Old 4 Mar 2018, 02:08 (Ref:3805610)   #40
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I'm surprised all the teams are up in arms about Michael Caruso with his weight advantage and all! /s
There is already a mandatory 103 kg combined weight for the driver and seat , as there also is a mandatory 200kg weight for the engine (both engine COG and specified engine ballast location).

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4.2.2 The minimum Driver mass is 103.5kg which will include the following:
4.2.2.1 Driver’s weight with his complete apparel recorded by the S&TD at the Driver’s
first Event for the Season; and
4.2.2.2 the seat, seat brackets and all mounting bolts, nuts, washers and spacers; and
4.2.2.3 any additional ballast, which will be considered Driver ballast; and
4.2.2.4 The leg brace and all mounting bolts, nuts, washers and spacers.
4.2.3 Driver ballast must be carried in an area bounded by the following dimensions:
4.2.3.1 X=575mm, X=1985mm and Y=42mm, Y=683mm;
4.2.3.2 Regardless of the above dimensions all ballast must be within the cockpit and
no modifications to the Chassis are permitted other than to secure the ballast.
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C8.7 Engine Weight
8.7.1 The total minimum engine weight is 200 kg dry.
8.7.1.1 The centre of gravity (CoG) of any engine must be no lower than Z= 117mm and
no further rearward than X= -300mm (with the 0,0 being the intersection of the
crankshaft centre line and the rear face of the engine block).
8.7.1.2 Ballast to comply with the minimum weight and/or centre of gravity regulations
must be affixed to the engine unless specifically authorised in writing by the
S&TD.
8.7.1.3 All engine ballast affixed in accordance with Rule C8.7.1.2 must only be affixed
to the Chassis in a position authorised by the S&TD
https://d3spxwpngnho1k.cloudfront.ne...ved-200218.pdf

It's an oddity there is no mandatory weight, mandatory centre of gravity/mass (and therefore mandatory ballast location) for the bodywork!? Huge oversight IMO.

The rules address this effectively for the engine and driver respectively, and the same rules should be in place for the bodywork.

That would leave the spaceframe tube work of the COTF which is already the same in weight and COG for everybody. Plus the transaxle which is the same in weight and COG for everybody, and the uprights and brakes which are already the same minimum weight for everybody.

Finally the free area for development would be left over: the position of oil coolers, oil tanks, exhausts and other miscellaneous components where teams can have as much fun saving weight and optimising the COG as they like (as long as they as they avoid the prescribed banned exotic materials!) --- with nobody to be disadvantaged just because they have a different base car homologation.

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 4 Mar 2018 at 02:15.
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Old 4 Mar 2018, 02:11 (Ref:3805611)   #41
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Mixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Was provisional but couldn't come up with the lap in the shoot out.

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Old 4 Mar 2018, 02:13 (Ref:3805613)   #42
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There is already a mandatory 103 kg combined weight for the driver and seat, as there also is for the engine (both engine weight and specified engine ballast location).




https://d3spxwpngnho1k.cloudfront.ne...ved-200218.pdf

It's an oddity there is no mandatory weight or mandatory ballast location for the bodywork!? Huge oversight IMO.
Yes just read that, though I guess they can still ballast the driver on the floor which still gives a lighter driver a slight advantage.

Teams usually put the remainder of the ballast after the engine is at its limit under where the icebox is to even it up with the drivers weight.
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Old 4 Mar 2018, 02:14 (Ref:3805614)   #43
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Old 4 Mar 2018, 02:18 (Ref:3805616)   #44
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Mixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
There is a lot of context to this which the other teams don't care to consider

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Old 4 Mar 2018, 02:25 (Ref:3805618)   #45
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There is a lot of context to this which the other teams don't care to consider
Of course, but it is utterly crucial that Falcon and Altima runners are not disadvantaged and do not need to incur unnecessary rehomologation costs.

Given the low perceived sponsor value of Supercars they are all racing on shoestring budgets, and need to extract maximum value out of the iconic Falcon and Altima bodyworks.
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Old 4 Mar 2018, 09:41 (Ref:3805659)   #46
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So nice best up for TV but the figures seem to be the proof that there is not a parity issue, albeit from only one type of track and two races.

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Old 4 Mar 2018, 10:50 (Ref:3805680)   #47
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the figures seem to be the proof that there is not a parity issue

Cool. Case closed then.






Hopefully no one bangs on about it like a few did about the FGX.



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Old 4 Mar 2018, 23:21 (Ref:3805794)   #48
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What a time to be alive if you're a Holden fan, their brand new model fills 5 of the 6 podium spots over the weekend, both pole positions, a front row lockout in race 2, fastest laps in both races and four different Holden teams all sharing the podium spoils.

Really time for the Ford and Nissan teams to work as hard as these Holden teams who have taken just 3 weeks to get their collective heads around this new car.
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Old 4 Mar 2018, 23:34 (Ref:3805797)   #49
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Originally Posted by Mark Dutton from the article linked above
“There’s all these little bits and pieces and Supercars, I believe, did the right thing, added all those weights up, worked out the weights, worked out the centre of gravity, and said, ‘you know what? Actually, you’re all pretty much the same.’
Chances that Supercars did this???
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Old 5 Mar 2018, 00:15 (Ref:3805798)   #50
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"Pretty much the same" is highly technical engineering speak if I've ever seen it
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