GT3 v's Supercar v's SuperTouring v's TCR - The Ultimate Thread

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Lol

Shall I read out the 1999 Adelaide 500 entry list and note how there are FOURTEEN (!!) more cars on it?

46 supercars in action at adelaide in 2018, just topped your 40

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by peckstar

challenge it then! The drivers, names and teams race every february at Bathurst. the cars are slightly faster, the fields are bigger it has manufacturer support and has been racing for over ten years. the crowds dont go. about a 5th of the supercars event

Whats going to cause them to come to a category that is as slow as 30 years ago. Nothing, not one thing.

How many of the drivers, teams and names been competing at the 12 hour for over 10 years?

The influx of drivers recently has seen debate rage about the role of GT3 as a potential replacement and discussion of the future of Bathursts favourite race. I am not suggesting the 12 Hour has/or will replace either however the increase and discussion about these topics has no doubt been enhanced with involvement with drivers, teams and names.

Hypothetically if manufactures lure name teams and name drivers towards TCR (or any other category for that matter) and away from their current categories - you will have fans follow regardless of your fixation of lap time comparisons against years gone by.

[Umai Naa]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Lol

Shall I read out the 1999 Adelaide 500 entry list and note how there are fourteen more cars on it?

That's roughly 50% more action for trackside fans!

To be fair, many of those additional cars would've been on a Super2 grid if it existed then, because they were privateers.

As we have it now, we get 26 main game cars for 2 races, and 20+ cars for 3 Super2 races.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

How many of the drivers, teams and names been competing at the 12 hour for over 10 years?

The influx of drivers recently has seen debate rage about the role of GT3 as a potential replacement and discussion of the future of Bathursts favourite race. I am not suggesting the 12 Hour has/or will replace either however the increase and discussion about these topics has no doubt been enhanced with involvement with drivers, teams and names.

Hypothetically if manufactures lure name teams and name drivers towards TCR (or any other category for that matter) and away from their current categories - you will have fans follow regardless of your fixation of lap time comparisons against years gone by.

Ive been watching the 12 hour thread since Gt3 began and they debate was there then and is no closer now, in fact it is further away.

there is no hypothetical because it wont happen and the fans wont follow because it wont interest them.

Production cars are running in 3 weeks at bathurst, it is almost as quick as TCR, Its just a support category.

I think also its important to not that the Greens just put forward a policy that new cars will all be EV by 2030, There is no 10 year window for TCR (or another category) to build up a fan base

[Compromised]

Why must we change?

I never hear anyone at the drags say they wish the fuelers stopped using nitro as it's not road relevant or fans at the dirt track say they wish the sprint cars had more of a sedan body like their daily...

Yes Supercars may be seen as archaic but that's what we should embrace - all this "progress" will leave a niche for fans who love big and loud petrol cars, race cars that test the driver (no aids) etc

What makes Supercars stand out amongst a sea of underpowered or over-aided race cars is the very thing we must strive to maintain.

Make the cars cheaper to run and build as always intended, loosen the rules around manufacturer permission to use body shapes etc and come what may

[Umai Naa]

Originally Posted by Compromised

Why must we change?

Make the cars cheaper to run and build as always intended, loosen the rules around manufacturer permission to use body shapes etc and come what may

Yeah, I think ultimately, that's all that is required.

[rich07]

Originally Posted by Compromised

Why must we change?

I never hear anyone at the drags say they wish the fuelers stopped using nitro as it's not road relevant or fans at the dirt track say they wish the sprint cars had more of a sedan body like their daily...

Its a bit of an unfair comparison as top fuellers and sprint cars haven't been based on or associated with road cars for years now. Fans of those two disciplines follow the sport because of the spectacle which you really cant find anywhere else even in motorsport. Touring cars became popular through the years as being based on cars that you could easily find in the spectator carpark hence why people follow them besides the spectacle the sport brings.

If you havent stood at the start line with two top fuellers launching side by side-well you really need to Nothing else compares.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by peckstar

I think also its important to not that the Greens just put forward a policy that new cars will all be EV by 2030, There is no 10 year window for TCR (or another category) to build up a fan base

Don't worry, the greens are just making sure THEY stay irrelevant.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Compromised

Why must we change?

Yes Supercars may be seen as archaic but that's what we should embrace

You can't just bury your head in the sand, and pretend that the Holden and Ford factories haven't closed. For that reason (the factories closing in 2017), I think 2018 onwards is pivotal for Supercars...

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by rich07

Its a bit of an unfair comparison as top fuellers and sprint cars haven't been based on or associated with road cars for years now. Fans of those two disciplines follow the sport because of the spectacle which you really cant find anywhere else even in motorsport.

I went to a drag night (top fuel etc), I didn't like it, it was boring. :/ I like corners!

Don't worry, the greens are just making sure THEY stay irrelevant.

Even people who LIKE motorsport, surely have to stay that throwing away pistons after 400m (!!) is obscene [sure, it is amusing to watch them rebuilding a steaming hot engine but still...[.

Motorsport can be wasteful, but that is just too much.... throwing away $1000s and the environmental impact of manufacturing the pistons for 6 seconds of mere entertainment. You don't need to be a "Green" to say, hey that's not really socially acceptable...

I don't know if that is the main reason why drag racing isn't popular with a more mainstream audience, but such waste is just tooooo much even for people who like car racing...

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Compromised

all this "progress" will leave a niche for fans who love big and loud petrol cars,

Big and loud petrol cars are only even tenable for the non-rich in Australia because our petrol is SO much cheaper compared to countries like Italy. They love their cars too, and they glady choose a more sensible and sustainable 1.4L Fiat 124 Abarth as their way to enjoy them.

You don't need a oversized 6.2L engine just to have fun!

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Compromised

Why must we change?

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the idea of Volvo V8 Supercars and Mercedes-Benz V8 Supercars (and ideally Jaguar, BMW and all the rest that sell V8 performance sedans)...

But surely we have to accept that was trialled and sadly it failed and the Supercars series really needs to come up with a different idea instead now, else turn into a irrelevant one make series of Holden Vectra, sorry, Commodore sports sedans...

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by peckstar

Ive been watching the 12 hour thread since Gt3 began and they debate was there then and is no closer now, in fact it is further away.

there is no hypothetical because it wont happen and the fans wont follow because it wont interest them.

Haven't you been preaching the the growth crowd, media, driver/team and public interest in the Bathurst 12 Hour since 2016?

I am not sure how those two comments align?

Originally Posted by peckstar

Production cars are running in 3 weeks at bathurst, it is almost as quick as TCR, Its just a support category.

Are categories roles at events designated based on their lap times?

[Backagain]

Originally Posted by Compromised

Why must we change?

I never hear anyone at the drags say they wish the fuelers stopped using nitro as it's not road relevant or fans at the dirt track say they wish the sprint cars had more of a sedan body like their daily...

Yes Supercars may be seen as archaic but that's what we should embrace - all this "progress" will leave a niche for fans who love big and loud petrol cars, race cars that test the driver (no aids) etc

What makes Supercars stand out amongst a sea of underpowered or over-aided race cars is the very thing we must strive to maintain.

Make the cars cheaper to run and build as always intended, loosen the rules around manufacturer permission to use body shapes etc and come what may

Hit the nail on the head right there.
Racing cars should be loud (just look at the negative impact the F1 cars created with their "quiet" engines and the efforts to make them sound like real race cars again)
Racing cars should be spectacular and outrageously more powerful than what people drive to and from work, otherwise you may as well go and watch the desperate commuters dicing their way across the Harbour bridge at peak hour.
It's all about the overwhelming sensation of watching and hearing these powerful "monsters" and drivers challenging the limits and each other at speeds unimaginable in ordinary commuter cars.

[one five five]

The "lap-time" argument again, how ridiculous.

Just look at the BTCC, by far the premier series in the UK, they are slower than more than a few other tin-top categories, including one of their support acts, doesn't hurt them though.

Until "Supercars", the ATCC cars were never that fastest tin-tops in Australia, far slower in fact, yet they were still the most popular show in the land.

Originally Posted by Compromised

I never hear anyone at the drags say they wish the fuelers stopped using nitro as it's not road relevant or fans at the dirt track say they wish the sprint cars had more of a sedan body like their daily...

Drag racing doesn't sprout itself as the "Australian Touring Car Championship", that is why the category must be road relevant

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Haven't you been preaching the the growth crowd, media, driver/team and public interest in the Bathurst 12 Hour since 2016?

I am not sure how those two comments align?



Are categories roles at events designated based on their lap times?

Im sorry you lost me there, can you explain better?

Most categories however are designated based on lap times, they either have a parity/BOP system or a category system

But TCR no matter what will still be just a few seconds quicker than a production car. would have 4 or 5 key tin top categories ahead of them including 50 year old TCM which are really popular with the crowd

[Ospi]

People need to realise that the Australian motor racing demographic is quite different to the European/British demographic in what attracts them as spectators. What works over there isn't necessarily going to work over here. Part of that is due to the manufacturer rivalries and their strong spectator followings which are more diverse over there and thus has allowed for a lot more categories to flourish as a result of those heavily supported manufacturers. In Aus it really is just Ford vs Holden and so that bit of passion which exists as a result of the brand doesn't exist when Audi, BMW, KIA etc decide to enter in a new category, and so these series need to catch audience attention with other factors such as speed and excitement. With TCR it lacks that initial "wow" factor due to their speed and platform and without any true brand support it will be an uphill battle to get people to the gates to watch.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Ospi

In Aus it really is just Ford vs Holden and so that bit of passion which exists as a result of the brand doesn't exist when Audi, BMW, KIA etc decide to enter in a new category, and so these series need to catch audience attention with other factors such as speed and excitement.

Have you checked an inner city multi-storey car park?

It's more likely to have Audis, BMWs, Jaguar and Mercedes in it. Supercars needs to tap into the yuppie market somehow.

[Compromised]

Yuppies show up at the GP, beyond that their engagement with motorsport is nil.

Once you free yourself from the notion that the grid must reflect the parking lot, you'll see that the "core" long term sustainable fans seem to prefer purpose built race cars with little to no road relevance

And I take your point about the series failing, I used to believe that myself. But it's all relative - as mixer, peckstar etc have said above, motorsport as a whole is down. It would be erroneous and possibly fatal to see our regulations as a cause of that and spice them up to try and regain market share - it's not going to happen.

[GHOGH]

NZ's first TCR - VW Golf
http://www.drivesouth.co.nz/news/lat...-for-otago-duo

How many TCRs are in Australia now?

[Umai Naa]

Just the Audi at this stage.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Mixer

At the price Audi are charging for the RS3 TCR, I would be too...

And the i30N isn't homologated yet, but they are probably the first manufacturer I would want to dive in.

It would be GREAT if we got some of these manufacturers into a series.

Could TCR be the next thing for Australia?

Hyundai is homologated.

[Umai Naa]

There's still a few non-works efforts that aren't.

[johnh875]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

Isn't GTS effectively GT4, TCR, and a homegrown class, all combined?

Or is that the IMSA one?

Yes it is combined, which I think would be the only way to get enough interest to replace the series that once had two cars that made up 1/3 of the total car market (roughly).

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Compromised

Make the cars cheaper to run and build as always intended, loosen the rules around manufacturer permission to use body shapes etc and come what may

That's easy to do but the vested interests who it would damage will cry like a two year old who has had its toys taken away from it so it won't happen. Even the most optimistic fans are beginning to admit that the present status quo will not survive and the whole idea needs putting through a blender to see what falls out. The present franchise system and the way the cars are regulated and built is one of the reasons that is inevitably going to lead to its demise. Unfortunately in professional motor sport there are a group of people who see that making money trumps entertainment and they will hang on by their bloody finger nails to protect what they have.

The parity line of thinking is another reason to think that there will be no injection of interest from other manufacturers and when and if Holden reduce or remove their interest all of a sudden it will be back to a semi professional series if it survives. Less greed and self interest and more understanding of why the decline is happening would go a long way to finding an answer to a problem that was obvious from the very beginning and the reason that the series was originally started which was to create wealth for a few select people. Don't give me the line that it was to promote motor racing and make teams viable, that won't wash, the underlying reason was a wealth creation exercise.