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Old 23 Mar 2018, 15:04 (Ref:3810163)   #1426
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Old 23 Mar 2018, 15:17 (Ref:3810168)   #1427
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Originally Posted by littleman View Post
http://www.motorsportretro.com/wp-co...lmutMarkO2.jpg

As a driver this would concern me more. You'd never see a smaller object coming and have the time to react.
You don't have to react though to stay safe.

Provided the helmet (and visor) are capable of protecting you from smaller objects, then the car only has to protect you from larger objects.

So perhaps the Halo might be the best solution, if paired with the right helmet construction. In effect the driver is wearing the canopy already.
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Old 23 Mar 2018, 15:42 (Ref:3810173)   #1428
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You don't have to react though to stay safe.

Provided the helmet (and visor) are capable of protecting you from smaller objects, then the car only has to protect you from larger objects.

So perhaps the Halo might be the best solution, if paired with the right helmet construction. In effect the driver is wearing the canopy already.
IMHO, I would say... No. The driver is not wearing a canopy.

Large objects like tires? (solution... add Halo), small objects like springs, or rocks that may hit the helmet? (solution... ?stronger visor? Note: Make sure it doesn't make Vettel dizzy!), objects that get past halo but don't impact the helmet like suspension components (solution... ?upper body armor?)

Keep building up those piecemeal solutions that continue to have obvious gaps vs. looking for comprehensive solutions.

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Old 23 Mar 2018, 16:10 (Ref:3810177)   #1429
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post

Keep building up those piecemeal solutions that continue to have obvious gaps vs. looking for comprehensive solutions.
I don't see it as building up piecemeal.

Helmets have continually improved over many years, and are accepted as the norm. They should remain, but continue to be developed.

With the sides of the driver's area, there is very little of the driver exposed - and this was most at risk from larger objects.

The halo solves this problem.

If it is considered piecemeal to have a halo, then what are helmets, gloves, restraints, HANS, fireproof clothing, rigid cell, deformable structures, tethers....?

If a canopy is proposed, can we remove helmets, gloves and racesuits from a driver's PPE?
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Old 23 Mar 2018, 16:20 (Ref:3810182)   #1430
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Just because the halo isn't a solid wall it doesn't mean it won't stop smaller objects hitting the driver, that depends on the trajectory of the object. Let's face it, the size of a goal mouth is massive compared to the goal posts, how often doe the ball hit those instead of going in?
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Old 23 Mar 2018, 16:51 (Ref:3810190)   #1431
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Just because the halo isn't a solid wall it doesn't mean it won't stop smaller objects hitting the driver, that depends on the trajectory of the object. Let's face it, the size of a goal mouth is massive compared to the goal posts, how often doe the ball hit those instead of going in?
I don't think that's a good analogy, the penalty box and six yard box can be full of players, which prevents the ball going into the goal. All the Halo has is a central column.
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Old 23 Mar 2018, 17:51 (Ref:3810204)   #1432
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https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/asse...-super-169.jpg

If you look at last years F1 cars, the drivers already sat very low in the cockpit.
Surely a relatively low, clear screen, running all the way from the left side protection to the right side protection would be enough.

The screen needs to be about the same height as the top of the drivers helmet.
Nothing is going to penetrate from above the drivers head because the cockpit size, both length and breadth is too narrow.
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Old 23 Mar 2018, 18:38 (Ref:3810211)   #1433
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Originally Posted by littleman View Post
https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/asse...-super-169.jpg

If you look at last years F1 cars, the drivers already sat very low in the cockpit.
Surely a relatively low, clear screen, running all the way from the left side protection to the right side protection would be enough.

The screen needs to be about the same height as the top of the drivers helmet.
Nothing is going to penetrate from above the drivers head because the cockpit size, both length and breadth is too narrow.
Like this.
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Old 23 Mar 2018, 19:01 (Ref:3810213)   #1434
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Yes

Maybe keep the sides of the screen level with the highpoint at the front of it.
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Old 23 Mar 2018, 19:21 (Ref:3810218)   #1435
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
I don't see it as building up piecemeal.

Helmets have continually improved over many years, and are accepted as the norm. They should remain, but continue to be developed.

With the sides of the driver's area, there is very little of the driver exposed - and this was most at risk from larger objects.

The halo solves this problem.
Larger objects is just one of the recent risks. Clearly we ignore others such as the smaller items discussed a handful of posts back.

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If it is considered piecemeal to have a halo, then what are helmets, gloves, restraints, HANS, fireproof clothing, rigid cell, deformable structures, tethers....?

If a canopy is proposed, can we remove helmets, gloves and racesuits from a driver's PPE?
No we can't have drivers racing in the nude!

It's called "Defense in Depth". You should not rely upon one single safety item. So yes, some or all of that may remain. It may not remain "exactly" as it is today if it is re-designed as part of an overall solution.

It has been built up piecemeal. It has been additive with bits and pieces showing up over a long timeline. I am sure I have the order of addition wrong, but for the most part these have been added one at a time... helmets, belts, roll hoops, firesuits, fuel cells, safety cells.

Occasionally parts of this solution have been re-engineered, but I think that F1 needs to stand back and look at the total problem as it is defined "today" and then examine the aggregated solution that has been created over many decades. If done as a clean sheet, is this how you would do it? My opinion is that the answer is "no".

My opinion is that the Halo device is a "bridge too far" in this path of "additive" safety design. That now was the time to examine the entire solution in it's entirety. However I concede the point that F1 wanted something "fast". Mix that in with what I personally think was wasted time due to them really not making it a priority (from an effort/resource perspective) and that resulted in a knee jerk decision to implement the Halo device. Other organizations seem to be taking a more measured and thoughtful approach.

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Old 23 Mar 2018, 19:24 (Ref:3810219)   #1436
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It's called "Defense in Depth". You should not rely upon one single safety item. So yes, some or all of that may remain. It may not remain "exactly" as it is today if it is re-designed as part of an overall solution.
Also known as the Swiss Cheese Model. Layered security in risk management.



This model is actually very good at demonstrating the issue with the halo. It would not have stopped Massas incident. However, the screen would have.
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Old 24 Mar 2018, 15:51 (Ref:3810427)   #1437
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Well having just watched the first qualifying from Melbourne my worst fears are pretty much confirmed. For me it was the first real opportunity to see the 2018 cars in any real detail and there is no doubt in my mind that the halo appendage is absolutely monstrous, what a faux pas by the FIA. That's me done for the season, I have no interest in watching these abortions racing; safe they may be, quick they may be but the F1 cars of today are Frankensteins.
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Old 26 Mar 2018, 06:40 (Ref:3810814)   #1438
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Your loss. There's some great racing potential this year, it would be a shame not to see it just because of something as petty as the looks of the car.



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Old 26 Mar 2018, 06:52 (Ref:3810817)   #1439
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The halo didn't look good on the TV/computer screens. It looked even worse trackside. But from being just a metre or two from it, it looks absolutely horrible. Hideous!!

I wasn't a big fan of the halo before I saw the cars in real life, but I reserved a little judgement until I did. I absolutely, 100% hate the thing now.

It does not belong on a F1 car. Period.
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Old 26 Mar 2018, 09:19 (Ref:3810851)   #1440
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I'm more used to it having seen it racing. Still would rather the windshield was used, but at least for me it now looks part of the car
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Old 26 Mar 2018, 10:38 (Ref:3810873)   #1441
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Well having just watched the first qualifying from Melbourne my worst fears are pretty much confirmed. For me it was the first real opportunity to see the 2018 cars in any real detail and there is no doubt in my mind that the halo appendage is absolutely monstrous, what a faux pas by the FIA. That's me done for the season, I have no interest in watching these abortions racing; safe they may be, quick they may be but the F1 cars of today are Frankensteins.
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Your loss. There's some great racing potential this year, it would be a shame not to see it just because of something as petty as the looks of the car.
i agree with the sentiments behind both of these posts. it is hideous, but on the other hand the halo is not the hill my love for f1 will die on. the sport is more than a crappy bit of problem solving by the fia, but it's understandable that for a lot of people, it's the final straw in a bunch of really dodgy recent technical decisions.

it is possible to continue to value the sport despite a hideous bit of scaffolding.
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Old 26 Mar 2018, 10:52 (Ref:3810876)   #1442
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I've watched a few figureskating events where people have smashed their heads into the ice and suffered injuries. If you were to apply the same thought process to that sport as you would F1, they should all be wearing crash helmets and have neck support devices whilst parading around... Perhaps they just "accept the risk?"
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Old 26 Mar 2018, 12:24 (Ref:3810909)   #1443
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There is so much junk protruding off every available surface on an F1 car that it is amazing that anybody even notices the HALO.

P.S. The teams all (most) run different coloured camera pods on the cars so that you can identify the drivers.
Ferrari Kimi viz. green camera Seb red.
RBR Max viz. green camera pod, Ricc blue.
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Old 26 Mar 2018, 16:38 (Ref:3810988)   #1444
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There is so much junk protruding off every available surface on an F1 car that it is amazing that anybody even notices the HALO.
The protuberances were much worse 10 years ago. Check out this Sauber F1.08. Actually, I don't think the Halo would look too out of place.

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Old 26 Mar 2018, 18:03 (Ref:3811016)   #1445
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came across a link for the nose cone cam from Kimi's car at the start.

https://streamable.com/dwi1d

with the Halo partially blocking the onboards and the difficulty in repositioning the camera higher and/or building a camera into the halo itself i hope they go for more of these shots during the broadcasts.

not a perfect solution but a good compromise imo.
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Old 26 Mar 2018, 22:15 (Ref:3811096)   #1446
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I've watched a few figureskating events where people have smashed their heads into the ice and suffered injuries. If you were to apply the same thought process to that sport as you would F1, they should all be wearing crash helmets and have neck support devices whilst parading around... Perhaps they just "accept the risk?"
I don’t think that this is comparable. Risk is not a constant there are different degrees of risk based on likelihood and potential severity.
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Old 26 Mar 2018, 22:26 (Ref:3811098)   #1447
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So, the bigger the risk, the less safety measures should be taken.
And the smaller the risk, the more... What?
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Old 26 Mar 2018, 23:41 (Ref:3811112)   #1448
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I don’t think that this is comparable. Risk is not a constant there are different degrees of risk based on likelihood and potential severity.
Exactly.
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Old 27 Mar 2018, 04:01 (Ref:3811139)   #1449
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Your loss. There's some great racing potential this year,
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Old 9 Apr 2018, 18:55 (Ref:3814490)   #1450
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I like my wife's description that the halos look like zimmer frames or at the opposite end of the scale, pram handles.

Personally, they remind me of those things you use to do sit-ups at the gym.
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