Stewards Reprimand both drivers.

[pannenmann]

Also recall Massa - Sutil in 2008. They weren't even given a reprimand. And now some folks are screaming for a punishment, although the FIA now takes a different approach than in the past where they almost punished the driver when letting go a fart??? So you either have to admit that the Hamilton pit incident also can't be punished, or the FIA was corrupt in favor of Massa. The latter making any previous decicions by the FIA invalid as refernce points of course.
And I'll say it again: The only questionable decisions during the last race was that both Alonso and Hamilton got off the hook for leaving the track and gaining an advantage by that.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by pannenmann

Also recall Massa - Sutil in 2008. They weren't even given a reprimand. And now some folks are screaming for a punishment, although the FIA now takes a different approach than in the past where they almost punished the driver when letting go a fart??? So you either have to admit that the Hamilton pit incident also can't be punished, or the FIA was corrupt in favor of Massa. The latter making any previous decicions by the FIA invalid as refernce points of course.
And I'll say it again: The only questionable decisions during the last race was that both Alonso and Hamilton got off the hook for leaving the track and gaining an advantage by that.

Actually, if leaving the track to gain an advantage requires you to let that person by again (as has been stated before when, for example, cutting a corner), then LH is in the clear as he let SV past during the pitstop (first possible opportunity)....

[Marbot]

hmmm....'Pot calling kettle black' methinks?

It's not like Teflonso to be playing mind games is it.

Also, what he seems to be doing, to use a soccer analagy, is jesturing to the referee that a certain player should get a certain punishment the next time something untoward happens.

"Lewis has had some warnings and if he does something in the next race, however little, there will be penalties because of the last two races.”

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/159227/...ms_alonso.html

[wnut]

Should we mention that Hamilton also punted Webber off when they were behind the safety car!

Why do they bring out the safety car again?
Maybe somebody should clarify the safety car rules and whose reponsibility it is to avoid a collision - the driver behind......

No reprimand again.
When last did an incident behind the safety car go unpunished?

[ASCII Man]

Originally Posted by wnut

No reprimand again.
When last did an incident behind the safety car go unpunished?

Monaco 2004, I think?

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by wnut

Should we mention that Hamilton also punted Webber off when they were behind the safety car!

I must have missed that - where did that happen?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by phoenix

I must have missed that - where did that happen?

It may have happened when Hamilton was doing a fair impression of Vettel in a Torro Rosso.

I think that what wnut may mean is that Hamilton's erratic driving behind the safety car during the Fuji GP may have resulted in some 'kid' running into the back of 'Potsie'.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by phoenix

I must have missed that - where did that happen?

Originally Posted by Marbot

It may have happened when Hamilton was doing a fair impression of Vettel in a Torro Rosso.

I think that what wnut may mean is that Hamilton's erratic driving behind the safety car during the Fuji GP may have resulted in some 'kid' running into the back of 'Potsie'.

Actually I think wnut confused Toro Rosso and RBR cars and put Hamilton in the mix !!!! Just nuts...

[wnut]

Originally Posted by phoenix

I must have missed that - where did that happen?

http://www.grandprix.com/race/r824racereport.html
Vettel found himself stacked behind his team mate in the pits and lost time, with Webber also losing out later in the race during the Safety Car restart when he was edged off the road approaching the last corner as they jostled for position at the restart.
http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=General&id=48263
Summary: Webber joined team-mate Vettel on the front row and passed him off the line - although both were beaten by the start-jumping Alonso. After that things got increasingly complicated for Webber, who took inters unnecessarily in the first shower, had a slow pit stop, was elbowed off the road by Hamilton,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-Or34KDHAM
Around 5:41 on this video of Hamilton passes on Chinese GP.
Webber's comments on his pit radio were quite clear that Hamilton had knocked him off. This leaves Webber with the dilemma of what to do next time as Hamilton made the position and got away with it. The upshot of this is that you must defend the position under the safety car and place everyone at risk, because the officials will not address the breach of rules!

Pit Lane testicle measuring, leaving the track to overtake entering pit lane, pushing Webber off under the safety car - good afternoon's work - no wonder he is happy with the stewards.

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by wnut

http://www.grandprix.com/race/r824racereport.html
Vettel found himself stacked behind his team mate in the pits and lost time, with Webber also losing out later in the race during the Safety Car restart when he was edged off the road approaching the last corner as they jostled for position at the restart.
http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=General&id=48263
Summary: Webber joined team-mate Vettel on the front row and passed him off the line - although both were beaten by the start-jumping Alonso. After that things got increasingly complicated for Webber, who took inters unnecessarily in the first shower, had a slow pit stop, was elbowed off the road by Hamilton,

Well I'm afraid the grandprix.com report and your summary are a little innacurate......

As we know, the safety car line, which is the restart line, is before turn 16 in Shanghai. Before that line the three cars should have been in re-start order, which I think was Hamilton-Vettel-Webber.

As the cars emerged from turn 16 they were no longer behind the safety car - they were racing, and Vettel was trying to overtake Hamilton on the left - the inside of the turn whilst at the same time Webber was trying to overtake Hamilton on the right - the outside of the turn.

So what ever happened it was neither behind the safety car nor did involve Hamilton making up a place.

Three abreast around turn 16 was never going to work and at least one car was going to lose out. Hamilton could not move left because of Vettel and did not move right - just stuck to his line. I'm interested to know if you were driving instead of Hamilton, where would you have placed your car?

[Andy77]

Originally Posted by phoenix

Well I'm afraid the grandprix.com report and your summary are a little innacurate......

As we know, the safety car line, which is the restart line, is before turn 16 in Shanghai. Before that line the three cars should have been in re-start order, which I think was Hamilton-Vettel-Webber.

As the cars emerged from turn 16 they were no longer behind the safety car - they were racing, and Vettel was trying to overtake Hamilton on the left - the inside of the turn whilst at the same time Webber was trying to overtake Hamilton on the right - the outside of the turn.

So what ever happened it was neither behind the safety car nor did involve Hamilton making up a place.

Three abreast around turn 16 was never going to work and at least one car was going to lose out. Hamilton could not move left because of Vettel and did not move right - just stuck to his line. I'm interested to know if you were driving instead of Hamilton, where would you have placed your car?

this bloody mess of discussion would not take place if it wouldnt need parking lots as run offs. bring back a gravel trap right behind the curb and hamilton would not only have driven off webber but getting the penalty instantly by not emerging from the deep gravel or filling up the the sidepod coolers with gravel. simple as is.

[wnut]

It is not my summary and I do not write GrandPrix.com's summary either.
Webber was also indignant about being pushed pff behind the safety car.

There is nobody on the inside of Webber while he is pushing him off the circuit, great tactic as his tyres are immediately cooled and he is gone.

If I knew I could get away with it I would certainly do what Hamilton did.
If I knew that the stewards would jump on my head I would have given
Webber racing room.
If I was Webber I would have held my line absolutely and taken us both out so he knows not to stuff with me again. Sad but true!
Vettel, Schumacher, Alonso, Massa, Kubica, Kobayashi, Rosberg and Hamilton himself would have taken this approach in Webber's shoes!This is the racers approach!

Sloppy and soft stewarding leads to dangerous situations!

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by wnut

If I knew that the stewards would jump on my head I would have given Webber racing room.

With Vettel on your inside, how would you have given Webber racing room? Where would you place your car? There was nowhere, that I could see, for Hamilton to go - and Webber should have seen that.

[wnut]

Driver behind bears responsibility to avoid the contact - Webber allowing himself to get moved off the track in this situation carries an immediate multi place drop! Vettel has the responsibility to avoid Hamilton and Hamilton has the responsibility to avoid Webber.

Clearly the FIA need to revisit the passing point if you are correct and as discussed earlier. When Hamilton is busy pushing Webber off the track there is no car on his inside, and he actively elbows Webber off the circuit.

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by wnut

When Hamilton is busy pushing Webber off the track there is no car on his inside, and he actively elbows Webber off the circuit.

I have watched this a few more times - using your link, and Vettel is clearly inside Hamilton. So I think I we will have to agree to disagree on this one...

[Marbot]

Perhaps it should be that no overtaking is allowed until you have passed the start or finishing line. Didn't that work before?

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Perhaps it should be that no overtaking is allowed until you have passed the start or finishing line. Didn't that work before?

As I have said in other threads, I completely agree that the safety car line in Shanghai is in the wrong place. IMHO the restart line should be at the start/finish line........

[Roths]

I cannot understand why Hamilton is being accused of pushing Webber off the track in this thread. Its so clear and so obvious that Vettel pushed Hamilton into Webber as he tried the inside line. Not saying he did it knowing Webber was there. Nothing bad by Hamilton at all and the stewards agree so i think it pretty much puts that one to bed.

I used to be a big fan of Webber but for some reason he has changed into someone who thinks he has a right to be in front without racing for it. Kind of has the ego of a WC without actually having a WC.

[wnut]

Interlocking wheels Richard Texiera F2 crash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaC3OKZ-FkI&NR=1

[wnut]

Indy Car pit crash

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNsBqp-EH-Q

[strider]

Originally Posted by wnut

Interlocking wheels Richard Texiera F2 crash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaC3OKZ-FkI&NR=1

With respect, that crash is totally irrelevant to this thread because it was nowhere near the pit lane and was not caused by interlocking wheels. Cars only fly like that when the car in front brakes sooner than the driver behind expects and there is direct contact between one of the front wheels of the car behind with one of the rear wheels of the car in front. That's what launches the car.

Originally Posted by wnut

Indy Car pit crash

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNsBqp-EH-Q

At least you've found a pit lane here, but it's still not what we have been talking about. Alex Lloyd had an accident on the track and as a result spun into the pit lane. Very scary and very dangerous, but as luck would have it - and that's what it was - no-one was hurt.

[djb]

Originally Posted by strider

At least you've found a pit lane here, but it's still not what we have been talking about. Alex Lloyd had an accident on the track and as a result spun into the pit lane. Very scary and very dangerous, but as luck would have it - and that's what it was - no-one was hurt.

I dont follow this statement--are you talking about a diff incident, as this one appears to be a car released into the path of antoher coming down pit lane. The car that crashed had other cars coming past it while it was stationary, and the car he ended up hitting seemed very clearly to be just another car either released or coming into the pits in the "fast" lane--am I mistaken?--as the said car didnt seem to be spinning or damaged or anything that you claim as Lloyd--I may be wrong here but said car didnt look any diff than the other previous passing cars and its speed seemed the same too as the others, it was just the contact with it that sent the "accident" car towards teh other pit crew manning their car.

So for me, this is a perfect example of what can happen--and even if what you say is true, the cars that hit were going pretty much the speed of all pitlanes, and so is completely relevant to this topic and the dangers to people working in pitlane.........

darn scary accident and made me wonder how the poor crew member fared...

Again, to be a broken record on this, I challenge you to stand with your back to a car that hits you "only" at 60kph and see how trivial it is, your ankles, knees and back may disagree with you as they in turn remember it for perhaps the rest of your life.....

[strider]

Originally Posted by djb

I dont follow this statement--are you talking about a diff incident, as this one appears to be a car released into the path of antoher coming down pit lane. The car that crashed had other cars coming past it while it was stationary, and the car he ended up hitting seemed very clearly to be just another car either released or coming into the pits in the "fast" lane--am I mistaken?--as the said car didnt seem to be spinning or damaged or anything that you claim as Lloyd--I may be wrong here but said car didnt look any diff than the other previous passing cars and its speed seemed the same too as the others, it was just the contact with it that sent the "accident" car towards teh other pit crew manning their car.

So for me, this is a perfect example of what can happen--and even if what you say is true, the cars that hit were going pretty much the speed of all pitlanes, and so is completely relevant to this topic and the dangers to people working in pitlane.........

darn scary accident and made me wonder how the poor crew member fared...

Again, to be a broken record on this, I challenge you to stand with your back to a car that hits you "only" at 60kph and see how trivial it is, your ankles, knees and back may disagree with you as they in turn remember it for perhaps the rest of your life.....

I'm very sorry, I owe you a double apology on this. One for not getting back to you before now and secondly because your comments are absolutely correct. The incident in the clip in question does show the consequences of racing in the pit lane and is a perfect example of why it is so dangerous. The same apologies go to wnut, who posted the clip.

I was talking about another one altogether. I shall have to look back and find it.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

Indy Car pit crash

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNsBqp-EH-Q

It doesn't look like they were racing per se. The 27 car had gone some distance down the pit road before it touched the white car and ran into the 31 car. However, it is an example of what happens when cars touch in the pit road and the consequences there of.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

It doesn't look like they were racing per se. The 27 car had gone some distance down the pit road before it touched the white car and ran into the 31 car. However, it is an example of what happens when cars touch in the pit road and the consequences there of.

Then add the forces of a 60km/h wheel hop in and ...........