Proposed Changes to Flag Regs

[radreps]

i think you have to be an ambidextrous flaggy to wave the two yellows at once I guess there may be some out there but I'm definitely not one of them so it will have to be two flaggies with one each ????!!!

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by radreps

i think you have to be an ambidextrous flaggy to wave the two yellows at once I guess there may be some out there but I'm definitely not one of them so it will have to be two flaggies with one each ????!!!

Discussed at length already"...erm in an ideal situation yes.....in a real situation at some circuits then you've got no choice but to wave both yourself....there just aren't enough flaggies.


Talking of which, Paul, what was discussed at the oulton training day this year, I'm afraid I had to miss it last minute due to work commitments. Also have we heard anything back from the msa regarding our comments?

[Paul Newns]

We didn't discuss the rights or wrongs of the new rule. We have what we have.

It was agreed that the yellows took priority as they are warning the drivers of a potential serious hazard. The only exception was that it may be necessary to drop one yellow for a red to ensure it flows around the circuit, and then go back to the double when the red has been picked up by the adjacent posts.

We also emphasised that it was vital that we don't over use the double yellow to keep the drivers' confidence in our warnings to them.

We had a very interesting talk by a driver and his views on flags. He was definitely in favour of waved over stationary flags.

I can let you have the slides if you would like them but as an experienced flaggie you may find them a bit basic as they were intended for those with only a few days experience.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Paul Newns

We didn't discuss the rights or wrongs of the new rule. We have what we have.

It was agreed that the yellows took priority as they are warning the drivers of a potential serious hazard. The only exception was that it may be necessary to drop one yellow for a red to ensure it flows around the circuit, and then go back to the double when the red has been picked up by the adjacent posts.

We also emphasised that it was vital that we don't over use the double yellow to keep the drivers' confidence in our warnings to them.

We had a very interesting talk by a driver and his views on flags. He was definitely in favour of waved over stationary flags.

I can let you have the slides if you would like them but as an experienced flaggie you may find them a bit basic as they were intended for those with only a few days experience.

Cheers for that Paul. Yeh I agree, I *****ed and moaned when they came in, but you are correct we have what we have and it's all about making it work now and let the msa decide in the future if it works well enough. And I agree, best to warn the drivers about upcoming hazards!... Can't wait to try the new system and see what fun it brings! Roll on 29th March! WOOP!

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by radreps

i think you have to be an ambidextrous flaggy to wave the two yellows at once I guess there may be some out there but I'm definitely not one of them so it will have to be two flaggies with one each ????!!!

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.

[Slipstick]

So far I've only managed ambisinistrous. I can get flags wrapped round themselves equally clumsily with either hand.

Steve

[exflagman]

Some of us have worked with flag marshals who can manage to get the flags tangled up even before they get them in their hands.

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally Posted by Paul Newns

We didn't discuss the rights or wrongs of the new rule. We have what we have.

It was agreed that the yellows took priority as they are warning the drivers of a potential serious hazard. The only exception was that it may be necessary to drop one yellow for a red to ensure it flows around the circuit, and then go back to the double when the red has been picked up by the adjacent posts.

We also emphasised that it was vital that we don't over use the double yellow to keep the drivers' confidence in our warnings to them.

We had a very interesting talk by a driver and his views on flags. He was definitely in favour of waved over stationary flags.

I can let you have the slides if you would like them but as an experienced flaggie you may find them a bit basic as they were intended for those with only a few days experience.

Paul, I'll take a copy if you can email it over to me - we can stick it up on the Flag Marshal site.

[numbersix]

Greetings, troops.

I would like to ask the opinion of experienced flaggies concerning the following scenario which I don't think will be rare. It's brought about by the fact that a minor, single waved yellow is not preceded by any flag from the post immediately before.

The scenario:

The post before yours is showing a double waved yellow.
The post after yours is showing a single waved yellow.

I am piggy in the middle.

Technically I should show a waved green. This is fine by me if I can see that drivers are aware of the situation (i.e., all posts are visible).

But if we have a blind bend situation, I would feel very uneasy showing a green if I knew that having "released" the drivers from the previous yellow sector, they were about to run into another (albeit less serious) yellow sector they couldn't see clearly in advance. This would be even more important if the surface was wet or damp.

My gut feeling would be to wave a green and also hold out the striped flag - as a way of helping the drivers understand a potential problem ahead. I know this is technically incorrect but from a safety point of view I feel all flaggies have the right to interpret a situation and bend rules to ensure safety.

Other solutions might be: not show a green at all (tricky), show a green and a yellow(!!! err-no), a stationary or "less than vigorous" green (?) or I take with me a huge white-board and quickly write, "It's a green but don't do anything rash" in great big red letters.

I would like to gather opinion on this, preferably before the season starts.

Thanks

Phil

[exflagman]

If you stick out the striped flag then wouldn't the drivers will be looking for the source of the slippery surface rather than the next flag point?

[JimW]

The oil flag just seems wrong and no, we don't have any right to make up the rules as we see fit.

If you don't feel a green is right, then I guess that it might not get shown.

Regards

Jim

[Woolley]

No different from the old waved yellow - green - stationary yellow situation, just with more effort. You should show a waved green as there is nothing in your sector to indicate otherwise.

Indeed, showing anything other than a green could be more confusing. Is it a full course? SC? An error and so should be ignored, in which case how many others do you ignore?

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by JimW

The oil flag just seems wrong and no, we don't have any right to make up the rules as we see fit.

If you don't feel a green is right, then I guess that it might not get shown.

Regards

Jim

But would not showing a green be making up rules as we see fit???

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by Woolley

No different from the old waved yellow - green - stationary yellow situation, just with more effort...

Ah...but the old stationary yellow was, in itself, an indicator of a waved yellow further ahead (I know it shouldn't have been but in most cases that's what happened, and arguably caused this rule change).

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by exflagman

If you stick out the striped flag then wouldn't the drivers will be looking for the source of the slippery surface rather than the next flag point?

Dunno, which is why I posed the question. What would you do?

PS. I'm not defending the position. I'm trying to gauge best-practice amongst my fellow 'professionals'.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by numbersix

But would not showing a green be making up rules as we see fit???

Gosh, why didn't I think of that?

Jim

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by numbersix

Ah...but the old stationary yellow was, in itself, an indicator of a waved yellow further ahead (I know it shouldn't have been but in most cases that's what happened, and arguably caused this rule change).

May be it's time to contemplate that when you are all knackered by lunchtime from trying to wave two flags on a wet and windy day.

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by JimW

Gosh, why didn't I think of that?

Jim

[Paul Newns]

Certainly don't use the change of surface flag unless there is anything you want to draw the drivers' attention to. If it's raining the drivers will probably have noticed!

I'd be tempted not to show the green in that scenario, but it would depend on where the various posts are.

[Paul Newns]

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

Paul, I'll take a copy if you can email it over to me - we can stick it up on the Flag Marshal site.

I'll let you have them as soon as I can find your e-mail address. I'm sure I've got it somewhere.

[Colin Barnes]

I would be inclined to show no flag at all unless the next post (stationery yellow) is distant enough and visible enough to allow a possible overtaking manoevre in which case its a waved green.

[Gordon Knight]

Originally Posted by Colin Barnes

I would be inclined to show no flag at all unless the next post (stationery yellow) is distant enough and visible enough to allow a possible overtaking manoevre in which case its a waved green.

Interesting question this one...let's look at an Oulton Park situation.....You are at Lakeside, there is a double waved yellow at Cascades, and double waved yellow at
Island In for a separate incident of course.
If you as piggy in the middle decide not to show a green, then presumably the whole of the Lakeside straight remains under yellow flag condition and overtaking is not permitted.

Could lead to some very interesting driver/CofC conversations post race. !!!!

[Colin Barnes]

Gordon
In the scenario you describe you would be showing a waved yellow at Lakeside, that is the post before double waved at Island-in. If only a single waved yellow at Island-in then the question you pose is relevant. Given a choice of no flag or a waved green there is no definite right or wrong but at this section of the circuit I might just go for a waved green

[Slipstick]

I'm not very experienced I know but I think that's the point. After all aren't we supposed to be helping and informing the drivers ? Us not letting them know when they have cleared a DWY zone because somewhere in the distance is another yellow (which may have gone back in by the time they reach that post) is simply confusing.

Bear in mind that drivers (as was clearly demonstrated at the Oulton training) will not notice a flag point if no flag is out. So what they will see is a single yellow then a double yellow then a big gap and maybe a single yellow. Confusing or what ?

Steve

[Asp]

Originally Posted by numbersix

Greetings, troops.

I would like to ask the opinion of experienced flaggies concerning the following scenario which I don't think will be rare. It's brought about by the fact that a minor, single waved yellow is not preceded by any flag from the post immediately before.

The scenario:

The post before yours is showing a double waved yellow.
The post after yours is showing a single waved yellow.

I am piggy in the middle.

Technically I should show a waved green. This is fine by me if I can see that drivers are aware of the situation (i.e., all posts are visible).

But if we have a blind bend situation, I would feel very uneasy showing a green if I knew that having "released" the drivers from the previous yellow sector, they were about to run into another (albeit less serious) yellow sector they couldn't see clearly in advance. This would be even more important if the surface was wet or damp.

My gut feeling would be to wave a green and also hold out the striped flag - as a way of helping the drivers understand a potential problem ahead. I know this is technically incorrect but from a safety point of view I feel all flaggies have the right to interpret a situation and bend rules to ensure safety.

Other solutions might be: not show a green at all (tricky), show a green and a yellow(!!! err-no), a stationary or "less than vigorous" green (?) or I take with me a huge white-board and quickly write, "It's a green but don't do anything rash" in great big red letters.

I would like to gather opinion on this, preferably before the season starts.

Thanks

Phil

As some others have said, it would depend on the lie of the posts and all the circumstances.

For instance, if the distance between posts was large I'd have much less of a problem showing a green.

Another factor I would consider would be the second incident (if I could see it).

If the waved yellow was a preceeding flag for a double waved yellow at the next point along, and the incident was immediately after that post, then I'd probably wave a yellow on the basis that in the circumstances it's justifiable to have an additional warning.

If the second incident was a simple pull-off some distance from the track, there's no issues in showing the green.

Generally I would probably stick with a waved green - but I can think of circumstances where I wouldn't...