Brabham BT21

[Bob Pomeroy]

Hi, as you can see I am very new to this site, but I have jut become the owner of 1968 Brabham BT21B-5 [frame no. AM262].

It was brought back from the US in late 1988 and I would like to trace any of its history before then.

I have waded through the 300 posts on this thread and note that it is mentioned all too briefly by Chris Townsend [p.14 post #196] as "Pete Knoll USA as FC". Any more details would be most welcome.

Bob

[KevinT]

Hi, I would like to take you back to the BT-21-12 for sale. I have some history from current owner.
MRS 67-67
Frank Williams 67-67
Charles Lucas 67-68
Michael Beutler 68-68
?
Alfred Mathews II 74-75
?
David Crigler 82-84
Michael Cramay 84-Present

If this is not Chassis 12 then were is it? Does anyone have any race documentation (entry forms, etc) for this vehicle?

Kevin

[Chris Townsend]

Kevin

The history for the UK in 67-68 is correct: This chassis number was observed on Harry Stiller's MRS run BT21 in early 1967. Stiller then split from MRS and ran his two cars with Lucas later in the season, with Lucas running the earlier car. Beuttler is described as driving an ex Lucas BT21 in 1968, and was observed as running chassis 12 in July 1968.
Beuttler's car [maintained by P&M Race Preparations] was sold to Fred Opert early 1969 [see Motoring News Jan 30 1969 p.16] along with one other P&M BT21 x Keith Jupp. After this the story goes cold.

Finding Alfred Mathews II might help with the intervening years 1969-74

Chris

[KevinT]

Chris - Thanks for that, the jigsaw slowly fills in. This car was put on the Brabham register in 1984 so I doubt it is a copy.
I have had correspondence with Harry Stiller and he told me of the move from MRS. He indicated that it was Brabham that made the move as MRS were concentrating on getting Formula Ford up and running, Harry went along as the driver and current champion (1966) to Lucas. He went on to keep his crown in 1967 and help Lucus develop their Titan chassis.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by Bob Pomeroy

Hi, as you can see I am very new to this site, but I have jut become the owner of 1968 Brabham BT21B-5 [frame no. AM262].

It was brought back from the US in late 1988 and I would like to trace any of its history before then.

I have waded through the 300 posts on this thread and note that it is mentioned all too briefly by Chris Townsend [p.14 post #196] as "Pete Knoll USA as FC". Any more details would be most welcome.

Bob

Welcome, Bob. I'm sure they'll catch up .... eventually!

[Chris Townsend]

Bob

I'm afraid that all I have in my notes is that the car was sold new to Knoll with an SCA engine number 50303. The source isn't noted [meaning I probably entered it back in 2000/2001, but engine numbers aren't normally given in the press, so I guess this was from someone who'd made a note off the build records.

Chris

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Welcome, Bob. I'm sure they'll catch up .... eventually!

Is there an echo on this forum?

[Chris Townsend]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

Is there an echo on this forum?

It's just that emails are taking a few days to arrive in Berlin...

[LoLola]

I found a little tidbit about my BT21C-16 today that was rather fun. I really did not know any early history of the car and early on confused it with the history of BT21-16. After realizing that I was chasing the wrong information I kind of forgot about it. Yesterday, I was bored and typed in the name of the person that the registry (Gari Andreini) had given to me some time ago in Google and I found a guy with the same name living close by in California. I knew it was a long shot but I located his email from a Bridge Club he belonged to and asked if he was the same person taht owned my car from new in 1968. He was as surprised as I was that we connected. He was the same guy! He sold the car in 1973 and became a stockbroker never racing again. We had a great conversation and he is sending me all of his old pictures, plaques and time sheets that he still had. He ordered the car directly from Brabham after attending the Jim Russell school. Although the car came to the US and only ran in northern California as a regional series B car, it is still nice to find it's first history and know it is still configured thae same way. You never know what you may find by digging around on the internet.

Nick

[Brian Julien]

We purchased a Brabham this past spring. Hopefully it should be completed to get on the track this comming summer. I would like to start the process of tracking the history of this car. I recieved very litttle information from the person that previously owned it. After reading thru quite a few of the posts here I will look for the AM # on the car. This is the information I have currently.

BT21C-1

The car was last on the track in 1994 or 1995.

Thanks for any help you all can provide.

Brian

[Chris Townsend]

Brian

You are in luck, somewhat.
The chassis number 21C-1 was given in an ad in Autoweek 2 Nov 1968
Vendor was Peter Nichols Goetz, and the car is described as having a 1600 Vegantune t/c and as having done only three races. Can't tell what they were YET. Said to have been maintained by Wintersteen Racing, Mohrsville PA

Chris

[Brian Julien]

Thanks Chris,

Any other information out there would be great. This gives me something to start looking for.

Thanks again,

Brian

[Robert_R]

Hi,

I have just snapped that from the Brabham Owners site forum (http://www.nvo.com/brabhams/discussi...sion&UID=10426)

Subject My old BT 21

Date Fri Dec 7 2007 18:47
Author James Williamson (jrw642@quixnet.net)

I owned an SCCA Formula B car (#21)in 1973 and, of course wish I still had it. Bought it for $3,000 and the late Lee Mueller drove it at Riverside and Ontario speedways. Sold it to a Mel Bliss in Buena Park Ca. and have lost track of both
Anybody got any info on them?

[britspts]

Originally Posted by Al Murray

Hi, While searching Goggle I came across this thread and would like to join in as I just purchased a Brabham BT21 AM 177, no tag. I would like to find out what the history is on this car and a possible chassis number. I picked up this car in Los Angeles last Wednesday and headed directly to Wayne Mitchell's for a quick lookover. The fellow I purchased the car from, purchased this car from someone in Riverside, Ca. That is all I know at this time. The car suppposedly has been in storage for over 30 years still on Firestone Supersports. Tim Osborne (BT21-9 AM175) was up to my shop on Sunday and gave me all of his research material. Interesting that my car, Tim's and another car from LA, BT-21A-7, AM227 (race-cars.com,archive) all have the same roll bar conversion. My car has the Wayne Mitchell front upper link/trailing arm (BT-23) conversion. The original wobblies are 8" front and 9"rear. F-3 Girlings all around. Everything else is basic BT21. No motor or gear box. I plan on a Lotus twincam and Mk8 hewland which I already have. Any help would be appreciated. I thought I was coming up with some info till I found this thread. I am amazed at the depth of information you guys possess. I have already been in correspondence with Allen Brown concerning my 67 Eisert - Harrison Special Indy Car. I started Vintage racing 10 years ago in a Elden PH10 Boat tail. I recently have been driving a Macon MR7B Formula Ford. With a bit of luck, I hope to have the Brabham ready for this racing season. Again thanks for any help you might be able to share. Is there a possibility that with Tim's BT21-9, AM 175 and my AM177, that my car could be BT21-11, Kurt Ahren's car?

Thanks, AL

This is my old car from the early seventies. I aquired it from Marc Bahner. I raced it with a cossie scc, 1100cc mae downdraught a t/cam and a bda at different times. Raced as a f/c a lot of the time and as a f/b too. I sold the car to Brad Schiere of Burbank in the early/mid 80's. At that time it was in pieces as we (britspts) had just rejigged the chassis and fabed and installed the new rollbar as we were going to update the chassis with a lucas injected bda. Car was sold to brad with mk 5 spd and about 30 gear changes. 4 or 5 sets of mrd wheels, 6/8/10 fronts. 8/10/12/14 rears. Not installed were the bt 23 front upper control arm pieces I got from Pete Halsmer. as I understand it Brad sold the car to Sperry Valve works a few years later. I can be called at my business if you like. British Sports in Riverside Ca
Tom.
PS thought Wayne might have remembered the car as I saw him at the races all the time

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

I've been working through this thread identifying BT21 Sprint Brabhams and have been amazed how many have been identified. The ones I can't identify are:

Brabham-Ford BT16/21B V6 (3.0) - John Taylor 1976/77

Advert for this in Autosport 28 Oct 1976 p61: "Brabham BT21B V6 Ford FT200" John Taylor (North Pemtherton). North Petherton is located on the A38 between Bridgwater and Taunton in Somerset.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Autosport March 14 1969

In a piece on the March 2nd Madrid F3 race there is a mention of "Swede Eddie Jacobsson in his newly-acquired ex-Ikusawa Brabham BT21B" - he came 4th.

Jurg Dubler was still driving his 1968 BT21B winning the above race.

Another piece mentioned that Rene Ligonnet had sold his 1968 BT21B but didn't report to whom!

In the report on the F3 race at Mallory there is mention of Alan Rollinson in the ex-Dave Berry BT21B whilst Cyd Williamsd in the Goodwin Brabham BT21B "never got going".

[allenbrown]

Bert Hawthorne's BT21 again. We know it arrived in New Zealand in November 1967 (so too early to be a BT21C), got held up at customs and first raced in Feb 1968 (Timaru). It last raced that season at Teretonga in March (says Vercoe). Hawthorne was out again in the first race of the 1968/69 season at Ruapana Park (Vercoe p262 but he doesn't give the date but it can't be any later than late October) and it's hard to believe he took it back to Britain and brought out a car (or another car) again in five months. However, he could well have brought out the update bits to make it a 21C.

Would it be reasonable to assume his 1967/68 and 1968/69 NZ Brabhams were the same car? If, as has been said, it was new when it arrived, then is it just a back-door unnumbered car? I believe this car was later consumed to make a sports car so the AM number may remain a mystery.

[David McKinney]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Bert Hawthorne's BT21 again. We know it arrived in New Zealand in November 1967 (so too early to be a BT21C), got held up at customs and first raced in Feb 1968 (Timaru). It last raced that season at Teretonga in March (says Vercoe). Hawthorne was out again in the first race of the 1968/69 season at Ruapana Park (Vercoe p262 but he doesn't give the date but it can't be any later than late October) and it's hard to believe he took it back to Britain and brought out a car (or another car) again in five months. However, he could well have brought out the update bits to make it a 21C.
Would it be reasonable to assume his 1967/68 and 1968/69 NZ Brabhams were the same car? If, as has been said, it was new when it arrived, then is it just a back-door unnumbered car? I believe this car was later consumed to make a sports car so the AM number may remain a mystery.

It's possible that, as Hawthorne worked at the Brabham factory, the car he built was the protoype BT21C - but if that was the (unlikely) case it wouldn't have the c/no attributed to it. Or it could be unnumbered (and back door...)
The car he used in NZ in 1968/69 was definitely the one from 1967/68

[LoLola]

Saw this one on Ebay today for sale,

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BRABH...em220200644926

[Axel Pilz]

I just bought BT21-27 AM215. Last Owner in France. Seemes to be a Formula Atlantic with 1600 BDA. Is there any further History?
When i get the FIA Papers there is perhaps more information.
I could`nt find the Brabham Register.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Axel Pilz

I just bought BT21-27 AM215. Last Owner in France. Seemes to be a Formula Atlantic with 1600 BDA. Is there any further History?
When i get the FIA Papers there is perhaps more information.
I could`nt find the Brabham Register.

Welcome Axel...this forum is as good as a register...wait for some replies

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Axel Pilz

I just bought BT21-27 AM215. Last Owner in France. Seemes to be a Formula Atlantic with 1600 BDA. Is there any further History?
When i get the FIA Papers there is perhaps more information.
I could`nt find the Brabham Register.

It will be interesting to hear what the FIA papers claim for the car, I suspect it might have been hillclimbed rather than run in Formula Atlantic!

[Chris Townsend]

Several BT21s and 21B did get t/c engines in period for Atlantic and libre. Can't think of any that got a BDA, so I suspect this is a hillclimb conversion. The AM number is about right [IMHO] but I think Ted can correct me if I'm wrong on that

Chris

[allenbrown]

I agree Chris. I've ever recorded BT21-series cars with MAEs, F2 Honda, Gordini-Renault 1.3, pushrod Ford 1.5s, 1.5 and 1.6 twin-cams, FVA, 2-litre BMW, FPF 2.5, Olds 4.1 and Olds 4.5 ... but no BDA. One is possible in French hillclimbs in the 1.6-litre class but I have never seen a BDA mentioned specifically.

[phdm]

When for sale in Paris in 1997, this car had no engine and no gearbox. FT200 gearbox and BDA were installed later.
The car did not have a chassis plate either. I am wondering where the BT21-27(B?) number came from.