The Current State of IndyCar

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by DS"

As I've implied, in their panic over the IRL, CART's done some stupid things that ultimately ended up ruining everything. However, CART's business, as it was at the beginning of the open-wheel racing split, was working well.

Penske and Ganassi CART teams had huge sponsor money.
They could out spend anyone which is a major reason they won.

No team in the IRL had any thing even close to the sponsor money the big boys had.
You cannot run NASCAR and Indy Cars at the same time without a LOT of sponsor money, and the ability to get big sponsor money.

George bit of his nose to spite his face with the rules he created.
He bs about running stock blocks etc. and then did not allow them.
With the rule change that Penske came in with, he started the slow death of his series, only slower than the asinine rules that killed CART.

Big John:
USAC went to the U.K. in 1978, where A.J. Foyt got the last win for his Foyt/Ford.
Also Ongais was just a tick short of breaking the Formula 1 track record at one of the two tracks when he spun out during qualifying.

The chassis that Gurney brought out, which was mimicked by the car built for Ongais, which he crashed hard, was the one CART banned.
In interviews, Gurney has in the past, showed his frustration with the sanction he helped form because they put him out of CART.
He could not afford to simply buy cars as big boys did.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Big John:
USAC went to the U.K. in 1978, where A.J. Foyt got the last win for his Foyt/Ford.
Also Ongais was just a tick short of breaking the Formula 1 track record at one of the two tracks when he spun out during qualifying.

The chassis that Gurney brought out, which was mimicked by the car built for Ongais, which he crashed hard, was the one CART banned.
In interviews, Gurney has in the past, showed his frustration with the sanction he helped form because they put him out of CART.
He could not afford to simply buy cars as big boys did.

Just BJ please Bob. There were two races in the UK in '78, one at Silverstone, won by A.J. Foyt and a second race at Brands Hatch on the Indy Circuit, which I went to and Rick Mears won. I think it was his first road course win. It was on the Indy Circuit Ongais set the outright lap record.

Here's a link to highlights of the Brands Hatch race.

https://youtu.be/v_1W64SoJVQ

The BLAT Eagle; Boundary Layer Adhesion Technology. There's an excellent article by legendary motorsports writer, Gordon Kirby in his regular column for MotorSport.

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/ra...ast-to-banned/

The BLAT Eagle.

[DS"]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

CART very well may have made a lot of money but they were eventually declared bankrupt.

Because ultimately, they managed everything wrong. One could probably write a whole book filled with the mistakes CART made in the aftermath of the split. But even without Indy, they had the keys to the kingdom only to throw it away.

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Penske and Ganassi CART teams had huge sponsor money.
They could out spend anyone which is a major reason they won.

So? That's sport, someone's got to win and usually its the best that wins. As Penske and Ganassi were wisely spending their huge sponsorship money, they can be rightfully considered as the best.

No team in the IRL had any thing even close to the sponsor money the big boys had.

More like, the IRL didn't come close to having the same platform CART had, thus it's not really worthwhile for sponsors to invest their money into such a small platform.

[D.R.T.]

Waiting for someone to pen a book or documentary into the whole split era - 1993 - 2008.

Would be fascinating to hear some of the stories, behind the scenes stuff - especially now that so many who were central to these manoeuvrings are employed in the Indycar circus these days.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by DS"

Because ultimately, they managed everything wrong. One could probably write a whole book filled with the mistakes CART made in the aftermath of the split. But even without Indy, they had the keys to the kingdom only to throw it away.

I think that goes without saying.

Originally Posted by DS"

So? That's sport, someone's got to win and usually its the best that wins. As Penske and Ganassi were wisely spending their huge sponsorship money, they can be rightfully considered as the best.

As we all know in the fickle world of motorsport, big sponsor money and a big budget, doesn't necessarily guarantee success. Despite Penske's Marlboro sponsorship, they didn't have it all their own way. After the runaway success of the '94 season, they had a dry spell starting in '95 and that disastrous Indy 500 the same year. The Penske PC27B-99, though a great looking car wasn't all it was cracked up to be, so Penske went down the Reynard-Honda route and Gil de Ferran won the driver's championship back to back in 2000 and 2001.

I can think of other teams, who though with good backing never quite made the grade. There's Rahal with Shell and Miller Lite, Newman/Haas and K-Mart. After Nigel Mansell won the driver's championship in '93 it wouldn't be until 2002 that da Matta would win it again for them.

Even with the likes of Ganassi and Penske going over to the IRL, with their sponsors money and becoming the two dominant teams, Penske have only won the driver's title twice; 2006 and 2014, then again they have won the Indy 500 6 times since joining the IRL. Helio Castroneves winning 3 of those and this opens up that old can of worms about the importance of the IMS vs the Series.

Originally Posted by DS"

More like, the IRL didn't come close to having the same platform CART had, thus it's not really worthwhile for sponsors to invest their money into such a small platform.

I think the irony though, with the whole issue of CART and the IRL, is that now Tony George has gone, what's barely keeping his Creation alive are pretty much the same people he broke away from in the first place.

[Bob Riebe]

One truly sad thing about the way George screwed himself; the engine size that Gurney tried so hard to get to work (it did but they were built to grenade levels)
now put out 950 HP on single carbs, gasoline and turn over 11,000rpm.

If George had nurtured the stock blocks he bs about, one can only imagine what could have been as Chevy, Dodge and Ford all put money into dedicated sprint car engines for WoO.
That money and those engines could have gone into Indianapolis cars.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

One truly sad thing about the way George screwed himself; the engine size that Gurney tried so hard to get to work (it did but they were built to grenade levels)
now put out 950 HP on single carbs, gasoline and turn over 11,000rpm.

If George had nurtured the stock blocks he bs about, one can only imagine what could have been as Chevy, Dodge and Ford all put money into dedicated sprint car engines for WoO.
That money and those engines could have gone into Indianapolis cars.

Perhaps they should revisit these engines, they sound like the way to go.
Maybe building an industry is a better way to go than serving vested interests, or maybe not?

[David A Scott]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I think the irony though, with the whole issue of CART and the IRL, is that now Tony George has gone, what's barely keeping his Creation alive are pretty much the same people he broke away from in the first place.

Truer words have never been spoken.

[DS"]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

If George had nurtured the stock blocks he bs about, one can only imagine what could have been as Chevy, Dodge and Ford all put money into dedicated sprint car engines for WoO.
That money and those engines could have gone into Indianapolis cars.

Are stock-blocks really the way to go? Especially for a formerly world-class form of racing such as IndyCar? Sure, it's nice to have a racing engine that also happens to be derivated from a production-car but that's what Tin-Top Racing should be for. Open-Wheel Racing on the other hand should be about cutting edge engines that raise the bar in overall engine development.
On the other hand: I still think that the "old" 2.65l V8-turbos would fit in nicely in today's IndyCar. Such an engine could show that even a "downsized" (From a perspective that manufacturers keep shrinking the size of their engine) V8 can still be quick, loud and attractive.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by DS"

CART had:

• most major open-wheel racing races bar the Indy 500
• indirect ownership of major tracks (via Roger Penske until he sold his tracks to ISC)
• major sponsorship
• top-class TV deals
• well-attended events
• support from major automobile manufacturers
• some of the most well-known racing drivers on the world
• an international TV audience

The IRL had:

• The Indy 500

True, but the George family knew how to use their business contacts.

Originally Posted by 10TENTHS

So much money that team owners used an IPO to raise $$$, and it went bankrupt a few short years later...

Originally Posted by DS"

As I've implied, in their panic over the IRL, CART's done some stupid things that ultimately ended up ruining everything. However, CART's business, as it was at the beginning of the open-wheel racing split, was working well.

We have complained about IMS and IRL, but never forget that CART was terribly mismanaged too.

[gttouring]

I try and watch every Indy car race and usually change the channel until the last 10 laps...it isn't indycar maybe but I will watch flattrack, speedway gp, NASCAR trucks start to finish...I watch f1 start to finish, what is Indy still doing wrong?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by gttouring

I try and watch every Indy car race and usually change the channel until the last 10 laps...it isn't indycar maybe but I will watch flattrack, speedway gp, NASCAR trucks start to finish...I watch f1 start to finish, what is Indy still doing wrong?

Imo the racing itself has been excellent this season, far better than most processional snooze fests that F1 churns out plus there's a championship battle. The only detractor afaic, are unnecessary caution periods but then I'm not the clerk of the course, .

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by gttouring

I try and watch every Indy car race and usually change the channel until the last 10 laps...it isn't indycar maybe but I will watch flattrack, speedway gp, NASCAR trucks start to finish...I watch f1 start to finish, what is Indy still doing wrong?

This experience is a personal peculiarity of yours.

Whilst there's alot of facepalming clowning around and superstupidity that goes on behind the scenes in Indycar, the stuff they roll out on raceday is good stuff that's better than F1 and better than Sprint Cup - if not trucks.

[gttouring]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

This experience is a personal peculiarity of yours.

Whilst there's alot of facepalming clowning around and superstupidity that goes on behind the scenes in Indycar, the stuff they roll out on raceday is good stuff that's better than F1 and better than Sprint Cup - if not trucks.

I will admit, the races are good, the clownery behind scenes affects promoting and it seems, the camera work is dreadful, I mean, I am on TV, the sense of speed is not there, NASCAR coverage has ruined what could be fast views for all ovals.
But the promoting horrible , I am watching the pocono race now, and wow can they make this dull.
I wonder if they think the same NASCAR pagentry is what they need versus the glam of F1, largely I feel indycar doesn't know what they want to be.

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by gttouring

I wonder if they think the same NASCAR pagentry is what they need versus the glam of F1, largely I feel indycar doesn't know what they want to be.

The market IndyCar cares about is North America — and their main competition is NASCAR, not F1.

Hasn't not knowing what they want to be kind of been IndyCar's (by whatever name) basic problem for about the past, oh, 40 years or so?

[tux]

Let me just add, the current state is crazy.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by gttouring

I will admit, the races are good, the clownery behind scenes affects promoting and it seems, the camera work is dreadful, I mean, I am on TV, the sense of speed is not there, NASCAR coverage has ruined what could be fast views for all ovals.
But the promoting horrible , I am watching the pocono race now, and wow can they make this dull.
I wonder if they think the same NASCAR pagentry is what they need versus the glam of F1, largely I feel indycar doesn't know what they want to be.

I enjoyed the race until it was overshadowed by the Wilson stuff. I think Paul Tracy is good in the comm box. Yeah, they could do better with the cameras. But 7 aside is not boring by my measure.

I don't like the glamour garbage simply because this isn't 1950-80s, today's celebrities are basically oily low-grade idiots and we don't need to torture the audience with endless awkward interviews with surprised "Kim K" types, who's ignorance and stupidity is literally boundless, spluttering and mispronouncing the drivers she unconvincingly says she's rooting for. It was bad enough having Ashley Judd there week in and week out. Being spared the inane drivel of these torturous idiots, is one of the reasons why I take care to avoid the Monaco and Silverstone grid walks.

I liked the way that the late Paul Newman and Letterman participated. It is/was a refuge for them, they were left alone yet it was known they were involved and I think that conferred upon Indycar a bit of elegance whilst Newman for example, very much remained a racing man. But the sport will need more than that kind of stuff to get going.

I don't think they are mimicking NASCAR, the pre-pace stuff is shortened Indianapolis tradition that pre-dates NASCAR I think. They don't drag it out too much. An anthem, a bit of ceremony and off they go. For me, it's refreshing actually.

NBC is doing a good job here, every credit to them. I had expected to watch half of these races as recorded but they are respecting the sport despite doing the NASCAR coverage. All these races remain live and they seem to be picking up some viewers with the NASCAR momentum. Particularly as Gibbs and Logano seem to be invincible, time now for Indycar to reap a little benefit with their different winners in their own series.

The problem that concerns me is whether these multicar cartels and mangled multiteam mergers are fiscally sustainable and the lack of team turnover with no replacements with the teams that have left. These are the kind of big structural problems that threatens the sport that seems to to bely the robust on-track action.

[RWill2073]

This doesn't necessarily say anything about the series itself, but they have been playing with fire all year. There was an accident at Nola where a hole in the fence caught a car on the front straight. Looked like it could have ended badly. The entire race at Fontana could have been deadly at any moment. And now Wilson is in critical condition.

I'm not blaming anybody, just saying that there have been numerous very dangerous situations this year. Some of it may be that the drivers just can't stop taking extreme risks. The restarts at Nola were amateurish, for example.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

This doesn't necessarily say anything about the series itself, but they have been playing with fire all year. There was an accident at Nola where a hole in the fence caught a car on the front straight. Looked like it could have ended badly. The entire race at Fontana could have been deadly at any moment. And now Wilson is in critical condition.

I'm not blaming anybody, just saying that there have been numerous very dangerous situations this year. Some of it may be that the drivers just can't stop taking extreme risks. The restarts at Nola were amateurish, for example.

I thought NOLA was amateurish. It reminded me of a round of the ShellSPORT F5000 European Championship, on a wet miserable spring day at Brands Hatch, racing on the Indy Circuit.

It's races like that, which do IndyCar no favours. Why Michael Andretti got involved in promoting NOLA does beggar belief? The wisdom of promoting it was questioned at the time and since June, Andretti Sports Marketing, has been involved in legal proceedings against NOLA over what it claims are missing payments.

The recent litigation between Andretti Autosport Holding Company and Andretti Sports Marketing, hasn't helped either and though they recently settled, this has put next year's Milwaukee Mile seriously under threat. He should have just concentrated on promoting the Milwaukee Mile; it's a classic race which must be on the calendar.

[DS"]

They have to drastically decrease the downforce to levels, where drivers can't take corners on ovals at full speeds anymore. Or else they'll completely kill open-wheel oval racing in North America.

What I'd also like to note are the outright insane restarts...7-wide, seriously? Had this been a CART race, the restarts would have been abandoned until the drivers got their act together. But I forgot, TGBB is back in charge of race control

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by DS"

What I'd also like to note are the outright insane restarts...7-wide, seriously?

That's a Pocono thing though, due to the absolutely massive straightaway. We see some pretty crazy restarts in the NASCAR races there as well.

Or let me put it this way: how many other tracks do you see 7-wide during restarts?

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I thought NOLA was amateurish. It reminded me of a round of the ShellSPORT F5000 European Championship, on a wet miserable spring day at Brands Hatch, racing on the Indy Circuit.

It's races like that, which do IndyCar no favours. Why Michael Andretti got involved in promoting NOLA does beggar belief? The wisdom of promoting it was questioned at the time and since June, Andretti Sports Marketing, has been involved in legal proceedings against NOLA over what it claims are missing payments.

The recent litigation between Andretti Autosport Holding Company and Andretti Sports Marketing, hasn't helped either and though they recently settled, this has put next year's Milwaukee Mile seriously under threat. He should have just concentrated on promoting the Milwaukee Mile; it's a classic race which must be on the calendar.

I think Nola has promise as a track, but it didn't look finished, had oversights, like that hole in the wall, was during rainy season, and the driving was amateurish.

RIP Justin Wilson.

The deaths are really mounting in open wheel racing last few years. Don't know that there's an answer, but it's getting rough.

[mountainstar]

The Current State of the indy racing league?

After Justin Wilson's avoidable death, it's questionable.

When and if an investigation is done, which like always the series tries to sweep everything under the rug, it might have an interesting revelation(s), but we will see in due time.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

The Current State of the indy racing league?

After Justin Wilson's avoidable death, it's questionable.

When and if an investigation is done, which like always the series tries to sweep everything under the rug, it might have an interesting revelation(s), but we will see in due time.

This was a freak accident and has no bearing on IndyCar or motorsport in general.

There's nothing to sweep under the rug.

[TheMightyM]

I'll just keep it simple: IndyCar's current casualty rate is unacceptable, particularly on ovals. The series must find solutions.