[Rules] Future Rule Changes

[wolfhound]

I see where the madness of trying to increse the volume from the current F1 cars is to continue.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/114057

What about changeing the utter madness and lunacy of the double points for the last race.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

You seem to have left out a large part of the equation; who makes up the largest proportion of TV audiences, and what are they prepared to pay for that privilidge.

I just checked back on this thread, so I missed your reply above until just now.

I understand what you are saying. I do think that "how much will a given fan spend" is important and that likely tracks with how much of a fan you are and your level of disposable income. It can also broadly be broken down into broadcast fees and expense of attending a race in person.

Overall, I think the sport is placing too much of a financial burden on the fans. I might consider traveling and attending a race in the US on occasion, but not on a regular basis. I think tickets for race day at USGP in Austin are around $200+ (which might even be cheap compared to other F1 races on the globe) while the WEC race day tickets at the same track are $80. I plan to see the WEC race this fall, but not the USGP purely due to cost. My brother was given free tickets for himself to attend the Canadian GP and he will be attending and asked if I wanted to join him, but I said "no" mostly due to cost. I will likely attend a handful of other races local me (historic racing, etc.) to fill up my "attending in person" needs.

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

As my kids keep telling me, I am an odd breed

If you don't mind, I will agree with your children.

I suspect that in general most hardcore fans will complain a great deal, but ultimately pay for "pay to view". However it is the average and casual fans that will walk away in large numbers.

I understand your viewpoint, but here in the US, with F1 having such a low priority, you are not going to see it unless it is on some type of niche channel that you are paying for somehow. Or biggest concern is typically "will we even be able to watch". The only "free" broadcast you might get is Monaco in which US broadcasters continue to think is special enough to show on a regular OTA/free channel.

Richard

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I suspect that in general most hardcore fans will complain a great deal, but ultimately pay for "pay to view". However it is the average and casual fans that will walk away in large numbers.

I understand your viewpoint, but here in the US, with F1 having such a low priority, you are not going to see it unless it is on some type of niche channel that you are paying for somehow. Or biggest concern is typically "will we even be able to watch". The only "free" broadcast you might get is Monaco in which US broadcasters continue to think is special enough to show on a regular OTA/free channel.

Richard

Richard, I don't quite agree with your analysis about who will or won't turn off their viewing, because there are large numbers of ardent F1 fans in the UK that have stopped watching the TV coverage, and that is a lot to do with cost. If I want to watch it on my cable service, it would cost me an extra $43 (approx) per month for a minimum 12 month contract. However, included in my current package, I can watch as much other racing that I could possibly want. Two weekends ago, we had live coverage of the Monaco Historic meeting for two days, and I know for sure that the racing that was broadcast will have been a lot more exiting than this weekends circus will be. Oh, and there was even overtaking.

I know that I am not the only long-time follower of Formula 1 that has switched off, and it would be fair to say that this is for a combination of reasons. However, as far as the UK is concerned, shifting live coverage to pay-to-view may end up killing the golden goose. Last year's viewing figures in the UK showed that there was an average loss of about 50% of viewers, with some audits showing losses of over two thirds. That is bad news for the advertisers who, in effect, pay for the broadcasts. And that in turn may be bad news when the broadcasting contracts come up for renewal.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

If I want to watch it on my cable service, it would cost me an extra $43 (approx) per month for a minimum 12 month contract.

So let me restate my opinion which might be more in line what what you are saying...

First, if this was to go pay per view (fee per race or season) in the US, and the cost was a substantial increase (not sure what that would be) over my existing per month budget, I wouldn't pay it. And it would absolutely kill off all of average/casual viewers and a lot of the hardcore views. I think that should support exactly your position?

Its also not clear to me if your extra $43/month is just for F1 or for a wider package that includes F1. If that is just for F1, that is too high.

Here in the US you are only going to get F1 if the "NBC Sports Network" channel happens to be part of a bundle that your provider (cable/sat) has. And it usually (I think) is not part of the "basic" package, but I suspect not many who might be F1 fans get just the basic package. I don't think it would survive in the US as a pure "pay per view" model. But as it stands today there is no "free" version in the US, but the cost is low, or already likely baked into what you currently get.

A few years back WRC was decently popular on SpeedTV and I think it (along with WRC visability in video games) was really kick-starting popularity of WRC in the US. But... it disappeared for awhile due to what I assume was increased broadcast fees. I think it is back somewhere now, but unfortunately that sport lost me as a view awhile back.

WEC in the US is similar in that many were expecting to watch it live (for free) via the web. But just prior to the first 2014 WEC race they surprised everyone with a pay per view setup and with no ability to watch races time delayed. Thankfully they were many options to work around that (due to bad implementation of their pay wall), but as a WEC fan, I was not going to pay to watch billboards drive around

Richard

[Mike Harte]

Richard, I already pay about $43 for my cable TV ( it is part of a bundle so the exact figure is difficult to state), so to view the Grand Prix would about double the amount payable. That would give me live viewing of the 3 practices, qualifying and the race plus all the padding and waffle. This would be on the SKY Sports FI Channel,which is included in their Sports package which is mainly, but not exclusively, all about soccer, which has no interest for me.

Now, if I was a direct SKY customer, I would be able to get just the F1 Channel for those months when the races are held at a cost of about $20 per month and it would be on a month by month basis without a minimum contract. At that price I might have been tempted if I was their customer, but I am not, and SKY will only supply my cable company with the whole package or nothing. So, SKY and Bernie lose out, and my guess is that when the free to air contract that the BBC has with Bernie that it will not be renewed.

But I have enough supply of 2 and 4 wheel motor-sport at my disposal without Formula 1. My package includes ESPN, Eurosport and MotorsTV which gives me wall to wall coverage including NASCAR, ALMs, Euro LMs, various other Sports/GT racing from around the world, Aussie V8s (you should watch that if you can; more than a rival to NASCAR) and the list goes on ad infinitum.

Bernie's loss has certainly been my gain. Watching Monaco Historics was far more entertaining than the snooze fest that was Barcelona.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I know that I am not the only long-time follower of Formula 1 that has switched off, and it would be fair to say that this is for a combination of reasons.

I'm one. The over-specification of the car and atmosphere of outlawing anything innovative are what killed it for me.

[Tucky]

Originally Posted by stripedcat

Yeah - you're probably right. There was a suggestion of replacing it with a "push to pass" like in IndyCar - but I don't think it'll be powerful enough - what with the "dirty air problem" in F1.

I'm pretty sure the current cars still sort of have a "push to pass" button. My understanding is that when used, the powertrain is effectively only focused on output power instead of a balance between output and recovery, if you get my drift.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by miatanut

I'm one. The over-specification of the car and atmosphere of outlawing anything innovative are what killed it for me.

I'm one too. I rarely watch anything on TV now except occasional international races when they appear on free to air and some local motorsport news. Occasionally I sit through Indycar (which I like) but F1 leaves me cold and has done since the rot started settling in in '98 when they went to narrow track and grooved tyres. It's been a gradual deterioration since then and I thought the new formula may do it for me and revive interest.

I enjoyed Australia till 5 hours after the race when it all soured for me (in much the same way when Hamilton losing his win at Spa) so it has little to offer me. I did watch Bahrain and thoroughly enjoyed it but they are far and few between.
I have friends with SKY and a permanent offer to join them but I only occasionally take it up. They are casual fans so some of the things that we hate they don't care or understand, but they often go to sleep during it!

Since Bahrain I haven't got sucked back into it an d spend my weekends away from watching motosport on TV but actually officiating which is more pleasurable. I enjoy watching programmes on historic motorsport but that's usually pre 1995...

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

It's been a gradual deterioration since then and I thought the new formula may do it for me and revive interest.

I thought the new formula would bring me back too. I don't have cable, so I didn't catch the first races and all the unhappiness about the team that got it right being so dominant and about the lack of noise kind of threw a wet blanket on it for me.

I don't care if the team that got it right wins by a full lap. I want to see the battle by the other teams to knock them off their throne while pushing the technology forward. That's not how most see it now, so I realized there was no chance the sport would ever take the "risk" of that happening again.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

As my kids keep telling me, I am an odd breed, and I like to live my life by certain standards, one being that my word is my bond, etc. So, when Mr Ecclestone, who holds the rights to the TV broadcasts, gave an undertaking that live races (not recorded and/or just highlights) would always be made available on free terrestrial to audiences in the UK, I took him at his word.

Just like when the government said that they would never put speed cameras on the motorways because they were the UK's "safest roads".

[321Go]

After the weekends antics, I say the rules regarding bringing out a yellow or red flag needs to be looked at for the future.

In a few other series, if you are the cause of the flag during qualifying, your best time is taken away and your next best time is used. I think this is the way to go in F1.

Anyone got Charlie's number?

[321Go]

Just got off the phone with Charlie. He said he's thinking of extending the effected qualifying session by 60 seconds if a yellow flag is shown in the last three minutes.

Thoughts??

[wnut]

Originally Posted by 321Go

Just got off the phone with Charlie. He said he's thinking of extending the effected qualifying session by 60 seconds if a yellow flag is shown in the last three minutes.

Thoughts??

Pointless!

There is no chance they would be carrying fuel for an extra lap.

You'd have to allow them to pit and do at least 3 more laps, warm up, timed and cool down.

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by wnut

Pointless!

There is no chance they would be carrying fuel for an extra lap.

You'd have to allow them to pit and do at least 3 more laps, warm up, timed and cool down.

If the teams think there might be a chance of yellow some might go for the extra fuel.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

If the teams think there might be a chance of yellow some might go for the extra fuel.

"Planned" Yellows.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by 321Go

Just got off the phone with Charlie. He said he's thinking of extending the effected qualifying session by 60 seconds if a yellow flag is shown in the last three minutes.

Thoughts??

What! This is completely stupid. The session ends on time. If they have a concern about a yellow flag then get out earlier and set your time earlier. Also if they are that concerned about pandering to a elite few how does that affect others during the earlier sessions? does it also apply to Q1 and Q2? If not why not?
And if my run halfway through the session is spoilt by a yellow should I be allowed extra time to refuel and adjust for a further run?

If I am doing a lap 8 minutes before the session ends and a yellow flag spoils my lap I don't get an extension of time so why should someone who is in the final three minutes get one!

This (if true) would have to be the most hideous example of 'knee jerk' reaction I have seen ever.

[wnut]

Yeah that too T!

[321Go]

Charlie's exact words were: "Why don't we extend qualifying by one minute when a yellow flag is shown in the last three minutes?
"It would give affected drivers the chance to try again."

I don't particularly agree with it either. I think 60s is too short. I think if anything it has to be extended by a minimum of the fastest lap time at that point in time. 60s won't be near enough at places like Spa for example.

Another idea. How about the top 10 who get into Q3 do a one lap dash. One timed lap, with no other cars on track. Fastest time get's pole. One warm up lap, a times lap and an in lap. Make a mistake and there's no second chance. Would be a long Q3 session. But well worth it IMO.

I'll give Charlie another call.

[Paradise City]

I just finished my brunch with Charlie. He kept complaining that there's some hyperactive wierdo ringing him up and going on about yellow, extensions and flags. "Such are the perils of being a high profile figure", I responded with a chuckle.

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by 321Go

Charlie's exact words were: "Why don't we extend qualifying by one minute when a yellow flag is shown in the last three minutes?
"It would give affected drivers the chance to try again."

I don't particularly agree with it either. I think 60s is too short. I think if anything it has to be extended by a minimum of the fastest lap time at that point in time. 60s won't be near enough at places like Spa for example.

Another idea. How about the top 10 who get into Q3 do a one lap dash. One timed lap, with no other cars on track. Fastest time get's pole. One warm up lap, a times lap and an in lap. Make a mistake and there's no second chance. Would be a long Q3 session. But well worth it IMO.

I'll give Charlie another call.

Did they not have something like that a few years ago. A late yellow is always going to throw up a little bit of a random result meaning the fastest driver might not be on pole. This should help to give us a better race.

[Greem]

Stop ringing me, I'm at work.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Charley says....

[321Go]

Charlie's not answering my calls anymore. I'll send him a text instead.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by 321Go

In a few other series, if you are the cause of the flag during qualifying, your best time is taken away and your next best time is used. I think this is the way to go in F1.

Agreed. It would bring back some consequences for going over the limit. If a driver over-does it, his team owner gets stuck with the bill. This would create direct consequences for the driver.

[chillibowl]

out of curiosity as i dont know the rules anymore but wasnt there a change this year in tire allotments and about which set a q3 driver must start the race on? has this in any way led to a belief that there is now an opportunity/advantage to be gained to have an 'off", draw a yellow, and end the session early?

surely this is a one off and not an epidemic which requires a rule change no?