Sports Sedans

[Robert Ryan]

Think about the difference of my back-then naturally aspirated 8 valve, single cam, pushrod 1500cc under 2 litre car to an alloy injected 6 litre chev that weighed near the same OR LESS than my Datsun 1000 Coupe with my 120kg fatarse in it, full tank of fuel and all the spares for good measure!

Maybe you can try to explain that to Racenews/Storyline or whatever name he is calling himself these days. I agree farcial.

[Peter Nightingale]

I have an u 2 litre S.S fitted with a BDG COS.Y with no where to run it . Where to now?

[Robert Ryan]

That is why we should have someting like the SCCA Gt1 to GT4 classes. Then you could race emphasis RACE against similar cars. Under the SCCA Class system you would be in GT4.
There cars are very similar to what we race here.

[Robert Ryan]

A Toyota Tercel winning GT4 car.

[FalconEL]

Originally Posted by Peter Nightingale

I have an u 2 litre S.S fitted with a BDG COS.Y with no where to run it . Where to now?

Peter,

You can run at State Level or National Level, in fact you're welcome to be a part of both!! That's the beauty of the category!!

By Robert's rationale, "Class Racing" WITHIN ONE RACE is not an acceptable solution. I think it could and should be.

What I would like to see more than anything is a field of 35 Sports Sedans ALL IN THE ONE RACE with a mixture of classes all competing for their own trophy. 0-2000cc, 2000-4000cc, 4000cc and over. Yes, there is a speed differential, and a mighty one in some cases, but so to did there used to be at Bathurst back in Group C with the various classes there, or at LeMans.

I understand Peddler's apprehension about racing against 600HP V8's etc, but as an example, a good mate of mine - Luke Marinelli raced his Ford Anglia Rotary in the Transam round at QLD Raceway last year - finished 9th overall for the weekend. He was a fair bit slower than the rest of the field, didn't get in the way, did more racing laps than he had at any other meetings he'd been to, had a race with some other similar speed cars and went home happy as larry!!

I guess it depends what exactly you're trying to achieve, but make no mistake, all Sports Sedans are welcome at National events!!

[storyline]

Originally Posted by FalconEL

I'm curious, you admit you've been out of the loop for a while, although you sound suspiciously like someone else I've replied to in forums , what would you like to see to make you more interested in the category that isn't going to require the injection of mega bucks per competitor???

Out of the loop - in respect to Sports Sedans. Ryan seems to think he knows something we don't, but I have my thoughts about him which shows how wrong we both can be, doesn't it?

What can be done - first have to ensure that the Big Boys and Little Boys mentality doesn't creep in again. As I said I believe this emanated from Victoria more than other states (although there was a smattering from NSW involved) - the competitors themselves have to keep this attitude right out of it.

Presentation - one of the problems in the mid-90's was the presentation of some of the cars. And I don't just mean the physical look of the car. Mechanicals need to be looked at as well. It's no good building a 'state of the art' you beaut super-fast car that is going to break something everytime it goes out because every single component is being stressed to breaking point. Nice to have but given the range of performances coming out of SS's, sometimes it is a case of taking a step back and building just below that level. As another response mentioned - pottering around for the day gave a 9th outright at the meeting. OK it isn't a first, but he can say 'I beat so-and-so' that weekend - with so-and-so most likely failing to finish because something broke (again).

Learn to play together with respect. Too often I'm sure we have all seen the smaller car try to argue a corner with a monster simply because he knows he can go deeper under brakes - but then finds himself in the way of that monster who has the horsepower and also believes he can walk all over the small guy.

The unfortunate part of the whole category - because of the relative freedom allowed, there will always be marked differences in performance between the cars - there is nothing that can be done about that (and no amount of 'fiddling' should be done either). The public wants to see racing and if the cars keep breaking they won't keep coming back to see them, crowds stop watching them, promoters stop wanting them. Viscious cycle.

[johnny yuma]

Sports sedans were so popular at Oran Park in their grassroots heyday the
entry numbers required Divisions 1,2 AND 3 --this gives more races,more placegetters,closer racing,more entry money-----
and gets around the speed differential nicely ! dreaming.

[storyline]

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

Rotorfan you are right there is no distinction unlike what Storyline is saying about Club and National cars.

At least put what I was saying in perspective - I mentioned problems years ago that neartly destroyed Sports Sedans and brought about most states running UNder 2 Litre Sports Sedan races instead of 'Big Bangers'. In fact the only distinction in the CAMS manual was the engine classes - in fact most circuit also recognised this 2 litre distinction (example look at Winton's lap record page http://www.wintonraceway.com.au/?item=5930 - Eastern creek divides it up into 4 groups 0-1.3, 1.3-2, 2-3 and over 3 litre, QLD Raceway don't recognise under 1300's - sorry Oran Park,s and Barbagallo's aren't online)

Most (not all) state sports sedans have tended to be under 2 litre - cost and assurances they will get a run play an important part of their selection.

[Peddler]

"The unfortunate part of the whole category - because of the relative freedom allowed, there will always be marked differences in performance between the cars - there is nothing that can be done about that (and no amount of 'fiddling' should be done either)"

yeah, it simply a case of who has the most money wins

[FalconEL]

Originally Posted by storyline

What can be done - first have to ensure that the Big Boys and Little Boys mentality doesn't creep in again. As I said I believe this emanated from Victoria more than other states (although there was a smattering from NSW involved) - the competitors themselves have to keep this attitude right out of it.

Presentation - one of the problems in the mid-90's was the presentation of some of the cars. And I don't just mean the physical look of the car. Mechanicals need to be looked at as well. It's no good building a 'state of the art' you beaut super-fast car that is going to break something everytime it goes out because every single component is being stressed to breaking point. Nice to have but given the range of performances coming out of SS's, sometimes it is a case of taking a step back and building just below that level. As another response mentioned - pottering around for the day gave a 9th outright at the meeting. OK it isn't a first, but he can say 'I beat so-and-so' that weekend - with so-and-so most likely failing to finish because something broke (again).

Learn to play together with respect. Too often I'm sure we have all seen the smaller car try to argue a corner with a monster simply because he knows he can go deeper under brakes - but then finds himself in the way of that monster who has the horsepower and also believes he can walk all over the small guy.

The unfortunate part of the whole category - because of the relative freedom allowed, there will always be marked differences in performance between the cars - there is nothing that can be done about that (and no amount of 'fiddling' should be done either). The public wants to see racing and if the cars keep breaking they won't keep coming back to see them, crowds stop watching them, promoters stop wanting them. Viscious cycle.

I'd agree with all that.

The current rules are more conducive to better racing with more relibility through reduced rev limits and the introduction of minimum weights to stop guys building 750HP paperweights. I believe these have made the category more competitive at the top level.

My point however, is that if there is enough blokes "pottering" (your word and I can assure you he wasn't.....) around and coming 9th, 10th or whatever, then you have a RACE on your hands!!

That's all I want for the category. 30 cars, differing speed levels, reliability, blokes having fun racing them.

[FalconEL]

Originally Posted by Peddler

"The unfortunate part of the whole category - because of the relative freedom allowed, there will always be marked differences in performance between the cars - there is nothing that can be done about that (and no amount of 'fiddling' should be done either)"

yeah, it simply a case of who has the most money wins

As with virtually every other category of motor sport in the world.

FACT - Motor sport is expensive.

[Peddler]

Originally Posted by FalconEL

As with virtually every other category of motor sport in the world.

FACT - Motor sport is expensive.

Yes, i agree but given the fact that the SS class is pretty much an open book in regards to what you can and can not do... it is a class where the point about money spent is highlighted more so than any other motorsport class.

I have seen National SS races in the past where there was a car that was hand built for the driver/owner that cost him over $350k and two or three rows behind him on the grid there is a car that was still tube chassis full lift of glass body, big 6 litre that the guy bought ready to race for $60k. This is a guy mind you who has a track record that speaks for itself in regards to his ability having other state and national titles under his belt to have these monster dollar cars with average drivers that were 6 SECONDS A LAP FASTER!

[storyline]

Originally Posted by FalconEL

My point however, is that if there is enough blokes "pottering" (your word and I can assure you he wasn't.....) around and coming 9th, 10th or whatever, then you have a RACE on your hands!!

Apologies - I wasn't trying to imply anything like that - I was stuck for a descriptive word. In hindsight I think a better word would have been 'consistent'.

[Robert Ryan]

I see this "class" racing as another nail in the coffin , for Sports Sedans. What is the use of building a very fast car but being the fastest in a class of 3-4?
Does not make sense. I never got the impression Sports Sedans were a "class " formula.
As it is this "class" thing has killed off the original intent of Sports Sedans, ALL cars no how much they differed physically would have the POTENTIAL to win a race they were contesting.

[pete55]

I think a lot of the problems with Sports Sedans these days is there is no 'Brian Thompsons' and 'Gerald Kays' etc in the fields. The Thompson VW type cars mixed up with the Mustangs, Camaros, Monaros and various Porsches etc were the reason Sports Sedans were so popular. IMHO is starting going downhill when they introduced the 10 Year old body rule.

[Robert Ryan]

Pete 55 that is part of it, but no major sponsorship, as Falcon EL has suggested "blokes just having fun" has caused serious competitors with a substantial budget to look elsewhere.
Why would you be spending $300,000 on a car for a bit of a "fun drive, with little recognition(except a short paragraph in MN or Auto Action) and no sponsorship ? That is why Bernie Gillon who with Phil Crompton, was a staunch supporter of TransAm Sports , now sees the whole thing as a waste of time. Unfortunately if nothing is done the category at a National level will be dead. Then the state series will also see to function as well.

[Oaksnaf]

That is a problem that doesn't seem to have a cure yet in regards to coverage of those types of classes. I would really like to see the result of a poll when buying either AA or MN with the question being:

Your main interests:
V8 Supercars
International Racing
Other Australian categories

But you are right, and sponsors cant find a reason to sponsor someone $$ wise when they receive no return in terms of market exposure. Although the main range of sponsors come from "suppliers" either they supply you with spark plugs, suspension components or brakes. No real sponsorship when it comes to "advertisment" which is $$.

Oh it also helps to have a friend of a friend or a good mate.

[kosher_pig]

I've heard around the traps that another class will possibly be started for BIG engined cars .....Butchers picnic

[Nivola]

well all i can say is i love the old days.

Being a west oz boy i have been lucky to see Brian Smith racing the old alfetta (anyone remeber the inccident when the bonnet flew off cresting the hill?) before the new beast was built and then handed to Tony.

Also have seen Dick Ward run the twin and tripple rotar rx7's and they are a rocketship in the right hands. 1 second slower then the alfetta though.

To me the alfa is the ultimate sports sedan. (okay i love thomos supra and keith carlings Rx7s)

The problem is these cars are not cheap and they cant get a budget(sponsers) because the flaming taxis get the limelight.

The other problem is they dont stay in one peice long. Last time the boys came to WA they where blowing up everywhere. This lead to crap racing except the reverse grid race where Tony got from last to first in a lap. Best lap i ever seen in my life up there. People wont follow it (comman man not racing nut) if it is car blowing up all the time.

what would i pefer a V8 round or a field of sports sedans?
easy the sports sedans.

[Robert Ryan]

I've heard around the traps that another class will possibly be started for BIG engined cars .....Butchers picnic

Just a rumour I think. Wish it was true.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by kosher_pig

I've heard around the traps that another class will possibly be started for BIG engined cars .....Butchers picnic

They tried that with Thundersports (and to an extent with the original announcement of TraNZam Sports), but look where it got them, back to Sports Sedans.

[Chucky]

Originally Posted by kosher_pig

I've heard around the traps that another class will possibly be started for BIG engined cars .....Butchers picnic

Oh goody, just what we need...............

[Robert Ryan]

They tried that with Thundersports (and to an extent with the original announcement of TraNZam Sports), but look where it got them, back to Sports Sedans

A Rumour...bit of wishful thinking from someone like me, that hopes Sports Sedans can get back to being a top draw category...oh well..

[jd yort]

Part of the problem with Sports Sedans has been it was used as a half way house for other classes of racing and now it isnt. Many a group C and group A car has spent some part of its life in the class in the late 80s and early 90s. Now that these cars are collectors items we no longer see them filling the fields. I can recall watching many a Sierra, VL commodore, Bluebird, Group C Rx7 etc racing, even the old B&H Bimmer under McLean spent a year in Sports Sedan. Now with the V8 Supercars being the premier category, these cars go to the Touring Car Challenge and the Development series as opposed to Sports Sedans.

However there is no way I ever want the class to become another Holden Vs Ford category (we already have too friggen many). There must be a lot of cars still sitting around in peoples garages ie Ceveri Sierra, Beninca's Turbo Alfa, Williams IMSA Spec S4 Rx7 or the cars just do a random round here and there at a State / National level like Thomsons Mercedes which appeared in a shade of blue a year or two back at Eastern Creek.

I have always wondered whether the fact that the quicker guys are faster than V8 supercars was the reason why they no longer support them or was for other reasons????

[Robert Ryan]

I intially said that a lot of the cars in the current National Class are ancient, not much new blood. What we need are newer chassis. not even older cars being pulled out of sheds.