HANS Device

[JimW]

And I should have added that perhaps the reason why the HANS information shows head-on shots is because that is the scenario in which they provide protection. They don't claim what they don't do.

Jim

[kartingdad]

I think you will find that in most modern cars, for instance our Ray, your lateral head movemunt is restricted by the removable side impact buffers attached to the cockpit sides, so wearing the Hans device would make very little difference.

[D_Marshall]

Walshy, i understand what you are saying and i can see your point. However i don't see why rolling in gravel needs to be such an issue when in nearly all the older formula fords a roll hoop extension can be simple addition to a car. The car may not look quite as pretty as before but if people are serious about trying to improve safety then that shouldn't be an issue. Just because people are racing cars from the 1980s and before it shouldn't mean drivers are stuck with the levels of safety from that era. Also in the event of a 'normal' roll with no gravel involved the Hans device should also be a help there stopping excessive movement of the head.

[DALY]

Walshy, I understand what you are saying. It is fair to say that most forms of racing have risks and most incidents involve different levels of "hurt". (some physical, most financial!)

The roll over incidents do not (hopefully) occur as common as head on shunts. I am getting a HANS after speaking with Dave Franklin and also my chiropractor. He has advised me that after a shunt, the body "remembers" and the next shunt will hurt more and take longer to treat.

For those wanting to purchase a HANS, there is a £100 voucher available from powernights at the 8th May race meeting. This is redeemable at GPR.

Anyway, back to smiling! let's go racing!!!

Peter Daly

[Cleggie]

I've worn a hans device when racing for about 4 years, at first I could feel the restriction turning my head left to right, but once I got the strap lengths right, and at the recommended length, it really isn't noticable. I've never had a problem with the shoulder harness slipping off, even on my old 863, which had very high mounting points for the behind my shoulders.

I wouldn't go on track without it, even on a test day, I want to test with the car in the same condition as in a race, with the hans I feel really very comfortable. On my 301 Dallara the harness shoulder straps wouldn't shorten enough with the hans device, so I bought a new set that fitted OK.

As for having your head fixed in one place by the hans if you go upside down & risk burying your head in gravel...well if its that bad, you really are in trouble and shouldn't be driving a car that is so old and badly designed that you can't get yourself low enough in it that your head is so far below the roll bar to keep you out of danger. Send it to the motor museum, or the crusher! Don't keep plodding around in a piece of outdated dangerous scrap.

I race with my hans, with the harness staps so tight I can't move a bit & I feel so comfortable & safe, my race engineer does the helmet straps up once I'm strapped in the car, its a ritual and I wouldn't go on track without it.

Anyone who races and doesn't listen to the advice to buy one, can ruminate on the pros & cons in the few seconds they have the next time the find themselves heading for the tyre wall....

You know what you have to do.

[Walshy]

Originally Posted by D_Marshall

Walshy, i understand what you are saying and i can see your point. However i don't see why rolling in gravel needs to be such an issue when in nearly all the older formula fords a roll hoop extension can be simple addition to a car. The car may not look quite as pretty as before but if people are serious about trying to improve safety then that shouldn't be an issue. Just because people are racing cars from the 1980s and before it shouldn't mean drivers are stuck with the levels of safety from that era. Also in the event of a 'normal' roll with no gravel involved the Hans device should also be a help there stopping excessive movement of the head.

Hi Dave.

Hope your mending okay mate.......

I know what your saying, but extending hte roll hoop won't make a jot of difference. It will still dig in. Older cars aren't stuck with older safety. We all have the latest belts, extinguishers, rain lights etc, but the jury is still out on HANS......

A few people have raised points since my post and I can see where they are coming from. I have to admit, anyone that seems to have used a HANS, "still" uses it.

For one, I have always said you can't make motor racing a completely safe sport. It isn't, but you can reduce risks. There is no legislating for what happened with your arm. To say head on shunts are more common than rolls isn't accurate. Most drivers I know have had neither. That's not to say it won't happen, but like Pete said, it's a choice that should be made by the individual.

And Cleggie,

" Anyone who races and doesn't listen to the advice to buy one, can ruminate on the pros & cons in the few seconds they have the next time the find themselves heading for the tyre wall...."

You sound like a converted smoker!!!!!!!

[JustinDawkins]

What is the point that you are making about older cars and "digging in" then?

i.e. what does an old car do in a rollover that a new one doesnt?

[Cleggie]

Originally Posted by JustinDawkins

What is the point that you are making about older cars and "digging in" then?

i.e. what does an old car do in a rollover that a new one doesnt?

...it doesn't protect the drivers head or shoulders! It always seems to be the older cars that you see the drivers head & shoulders stick out, & the rollbar is almost lower than the drivers head.

A hans device won't provide protection from outdated design. Look at any newer cars and the drivers are far more protected. i.e. shoulders below the side of the cockpit and head well below the roll-hoop.

[Triple J Motorsport]

Originally Posted by kartingdad

I think you will find that in most modern cars, for instance our Ray, your lateral head movemunt is restricted by the removable side impact buffers attached to the cockpit sides, so wearing the Hans device would make very little difference.

Agreed they do protect your head from side impacts but Hans device gives protection for head on impacts.

Has anyone worn a Hans in a new Ray?

Looking at the FIA spec sheet the belts would appear to be too low and too wide apart although they do say you can cross them behind your head.

The problem I would have is the head rest it already pushes my head forward more than I would ideally like. The only answer I can see is move the seat pedals steering wheel and gear level farward to get the space the Hans takes up behind your head.

[D_Marshall]

Hi Walshy, im not doing too bad thanks. Having a lot of rest and just waiting for bones to 'weld' back together as i have been calling it.

I know what your saying about not being able to make motor racing completely safe and agree totally. Like you said there is nothing that could have been done about my arm. In any high speed accident arms, and to a lesser extent legs, are going to be thrown around and if they come into contact with anything hard then it is just unfortunate.

At the end of the day all drivers know what the risks are in racing and take the choice to race. I'd just like to see the sport as safe as possible and making the risks for divers less. I know i've never really spoken about these things before and i may seem to be getting all high and mighty about it now but that's not the case at all. I just hate the thought of someone else having to go through what i and the other driver have been through when there is a (and i admit not 100% guaranteed) solution out there. If a driver feels that there are other risks that outweigh the possible positives then i suppose that is fair enough and it is up to them. However i urge people in the more modern cars to get a Hans device and suggest to people in the older cars to seriously think about it.

[mattray]

John,

yes the problems I was referring to were all in a new Ray. Carl Hemming's.

[goughy]

Had a quick 5 lap blast in our Ray today at Silverstone with my HANS on. No problem whatsoever. Could not even feel I had it on. It is actually a 20 degree version (bought when I did a bit of SCSA) which I am selling on Ebay so I can a get a 30 degree.

[Walshy]

Originally Posted by D_Marshall

Hi Walshy, im not doing too bad thanks. Having a lot of rest and just waiting for bones to 'weld' back together as i have been calling it.

I know what your saying about not being able to make motor racing completely safe and agree totally. Like you said there is nothing that could have been done about my arm. In any high speed accident arms, and to a lesser extent legs, are going to be thrown around and if they come into contact with anything hard then it is just unfortunate.

At the end of the day all drivers know what the risks are in racing and take the choice to race. I'd just like to see the sport as safe as possible and making the risks for divers less. I know i've never really spoken about these things before and i may seem to be getting all high and mighty about it now but that's not the case at all. I just hate the thought of someone else having to go through what i and the other driver have been through when there is a (and i admit not 100% guaranteed) solution out there. If a driver feels that there are other risks that outweigh the possible positives then i suppose that is fair enough and it is up to them. However i urge people in the more modern cars to get a Hans device and suggest to people in the older cars to seriously think about it.

Hi mate.

Agreed, but it should not be a decision forced on drivers by the MSA. It should remain a choice. The only way they could make it mandatory is if it protected against ALL types of head injury. Can you imagine the flack they would get and possible law suite if they made them mandatory and a driver suffered severe injuries that might not have occured if he/she had not worn a HANS..............................

Are we going to see you about anytime soon?????

[kartingdad]

Rather than quote Cleggie as sounding like a 'converted smoker', I would be more concerned that people might think I'm a smoker that thinks its ok to smoke, 'cos not all people die of lung cancer'.

A head on crash is a head on crash. F1, GP2, F3, and ff1600. Doesn't matter what 'class' you are in, Mr. Einsteins laws of physics are the same when applied to your head and neck.

It clearly doesn't take an Einstein to figure that one out!

[Walshy]

Do you actually read the Threads or just bits?

[Cleggie]

the hans does protect from side impacts, or roll-over, because it stops the the head from flopping around from side to side.

Anyone who has worn one will know this (& the other benefits detailed earlier).

Anyone who hasn't worn one can, if they wish, keep up with pointless & groundless arguments, but its sad that, if in doing so, these 'flat earthers' put off others from investing in a hans.

the evidence is there for all to see....

[FranksWilde]

Well which one do you buy then?

If you look at this link there are a number of 30 degree versions.

Best price is $700 about £400 quid when you've imported I think.

Sorry forgot to put the link in.

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/group.asp?GroupID=HANS

[kartingdad]

I actually try to avoid the tedious posters for obvious reasons, a point of view made abundantly worthwhile in this thread.

[SAMD]

The tedium mind you, is at least in part caused by the people doing the posting, not reading the threads.

[Walshy]

Originally Posted by Cleggie

the hans does protect from side impacts, or roll-over, because it stops the the head from flopping around from side to side.

Anyone who has worn one will know this (& the other benefits detailed earlier).

Anyone who hasn't worn one can, if they wish, keep up with pointless & groundless arguments, but its sad that, if in doing so, these 'flat earthers' put off others from investing in a hans.

the evidence is there for all to see....

You have an opinion as do we all Cleggie.

You show me where the evidence is of the HANS device providing protection other than frontal??????

And you obviously aren't getting the point. If, as you say, it stops your head from floppig around, then it is preventing you from moving your head in the event of a roll into gravel when the rollhoop digs in and the car lands on your head. In an older Formula Ford with low cockpit sides, this is exactly what happens...............

I thought I'd already made this point.

Even the designers only demostrate frontal impacts as a selling point. It wasn't designed for anything other than that.

Who are you refering to as "flat earthers" by the way?

Are you on Commission from HANS? What concern is it of yours if people objectively make up their own minds by what they read on the Thread. As you have done in purchasing a HANS, so others can choose what they want. All along, all that's been said is the purchase of a HANS "should" remain a choice.

I will say it once more! I want to see proof that it is as safe in the event of a roll as it is in a head on.

One point that should also be made here, is that there are too many drivers that don't have their belts tight enough. This is another factor in the cause of some of these injuries. A pretty major one actually.

[Eddy V]

I may only be a very small race part dealer, but I have to agree a little bit with Walshy.
We do not get any proof from the designers / makers of Hans devices that they work in side impacts.
Will they help in side impacts? Probably yes. Will they do that work properly? Probably not.
They are designed for frontal impacts only. Modern racecars have padded foam thingies and stuff around the driver to stop side movement, older cars haven't. But still it may work, it is all a bit of a grey area. Depends on the crash as well.

The type of Hans you should use is the one that fits you best, while thightly strapped in your car.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Walshy

Hi mate.

Agreed, but it should not be a decision forced on drivers by the MSA. It should remain a choice. The only way they could make it mandatory is if it protected against ALL types of head injury. Can you imagine the flack they would get and possible law suite if they made them mandatory and a driver suffered severe injuries that might not have occurred if he/she had not worn a HANS..............................

I don't think your argument really stands up to a bit of thought. Your helmet does not provide perfect protection (read the label on it which says so if it is an American one), your flame resistant overalls don't provide perfect protection, your belts . . .

Nothing is perfect but some things are better than nothing.

Not that I'm arguing for HANS to be made compulsory. I'm quite happy to watch drivers sliding umpteen litre Edwardian cars around while sitting four feet above the ground in an armchair with no seat belts. Their choice.

Now the MSA have to consider the effect on the sport of what the 'public' might believe were unnecessary deaths. And so might the solicitors of affected dependents.

Regards

Jim

[mountainstar]

Consider the fact that belted in your whole body is restrained with the exception of your head. Your head is the most important part of your body. The HANS acts as a restraint system for your head. Even in side impacts there are still forward forces being acted on. There is usually an x component(forward speed) along with a y component(lateral speed) and sometimes an x component(vertical speed) in motor vehicle accidents. With enough force essentially your head pops off your shoulders or you can suffer a basilar skull fracture(a good reason to always wear a chin bar helmet).

For graphic details about what can happen in impacts without HANS, I would recommend Dr. Steve Olvey's book, "Rapid Response".

I saw figures years ago(can't remember where) but statistically rollovers are a small fraction of motor racing accidents. If a driver is rolling over frequently the safety issue is probably more associated with the driver and his lack of skill. In that case, OSB(other sports beckon) or the driver needs proper instruction from a professional.

[SAMD]

Lies, damned lies and statistics, to coin a phrase.
The problem with stats like the one that says you are more likely to have a heavy frontal impact than a rollover is, they are looking at overall figures, whereas a drivers particular class.... and when that is compounded with say.., that drivers particular circuit.... it becomes less clear that a HANS device is necessarily the thing to have.
In my own class, I drive an '86 formula ford and I feel the advantages/disadvantages are 50/50. I have been off the track at over 100mph on boggy stuff and if my car had been spinning I think it is likely I would have had a rollover (happily I was going backwards in a straight line!) but if the car had finished upsidedown the roll bar would undoubtedly have sank into the soft ground leaving my head holding the car up.
Now whether the HANS would have been a disadvantage then I really dont know.
But my head would not have been able to be squeezed out of the way.

So, you weigh everything up as best you can and make your choice (or not) as the case may be.

[greenboy]

Good afternoon.Just a quick point, Dave Hart has found an alternative to the Hanns Device.It is called a Leatt-brace Moto R neck brace.Although it is unfortunatley not FIA approved,tests carried out show that it is more effective than the Hanns Device,that is what they say anyway.It is basically a neck brace that is attached around the neck and under the chin.It is not attached to the helmet and therefore does not impair head movement and therefore could allay any fears in roll-over accidents.It prevents injury from frontal impact,side impact and compression impact.I think it ticks a lot of the boxes when it comes to driver saftey and is well worth consideration as I fear that the Hanns Device will not be made mandatory.See you at Oulton next Saturday.Diz I will bring the jam.