Best Drivers...?

[awrb]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

a champion has to be a certain kind of person, and I think Muller is not the kind of guy I would rate as a champion.

Then what exactly do you define as being a champion. I would personally say that winning a major championship makes you a champion. And I think it is slightly offensive to say this about Yvan, suggesting that his past few years work have been a waste because you don't like his personallity. I don't really like Loeb, I think he's very arrogant and has said some things that have made me think, "what a ****". great champion though.

So what is your definition of a champion?

[helterskelter]

I've already said what is my definition of champion, I'll try to give you an example so I can make myself a little clearer: if I had a kid about 8, 9 years old, who is just starting karting and is looking for a model, I would suggest him Priaulx or Senna, Mansell or Zanardi as a model. The drivers you named are absolutely talented and among the best drivers in their disciplines, Loeb may even be THE best, and there's no question about it. So don't get me wrong, I never meant to offend Yvan Muller, of course he's a worthy world champion, he proved it on track. On the other hand, people like the ones I mentioned have something more in their hearts that makes them special. I think grit, kindness, humanity, humility are as important as talent and speed in order to be complete drivers. I believe that being a driver is not just sitting in a car and go as fast as possible, but also giving yourself rules, making people around you comfortable, having some inner peace inside that actually shows in your in and off track behaviour. But, I repeat, Muller is absolutely a world class driver and a worthy world champion, and I rate him very very highly as a driver, no question about it.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

I've already said what is my definition of champion, I'll try to give you an example so I can make myself a little clearer: if I had a kid about 8, 9 years old, who is just starting karting and is looking for a model, I would suggest him Priaulx or Senna, Mansell or Zanardi as a model. The drivers you named are absolutely talented and among the best drivers in their disciplines, Loeb may even be THE best, and there's no question about it. So don't get me wrong, I never meant to offend Yvan Muller, of course he's a worthy world champion, he proved it on track. On the other hand, people like the ones I mentioned have something more in their hearts that makes them special. I think grit, kindness, humanity, humility are as important as talent and speed in order to be complete drivers. I believe that being a driver is not just sitting in a car and go as fast as possible, but also giving yourself rules, making people around you comfortable, having some inner peace inside that actually shows in your in and off track behaviour. But, I repeat, Muller is absolutely a world class driver and a worthy world champion, and I rate him very very highly as a driver, no question about it.

It sounds like your saying that Muller is not a role-model. He is definitely a champion, as proven by his track record. If you feel that he is not a good role-model then that is fine, but to say that someone who has won the British F2 championship, the French TCC, British TCC, World TCC, and the Andros Ice Racing Championship 10 times is not a chmpion is ludicrous and insulting to his championship winning qualities.

[helterskelter]

I yhink it's just a question of words: you call it role model, I call it champion, by giving it a meaning that is pretty near to that of 'role model' but not exactly the same. I repeat once again, of course he's a great driver, I would be an idiot if I said he's not. I'm talking about special qualities that only few people in the history of the sport have shown, not driving but things like mind approach and attitude in and off the track. I would never insult a World Champion!

[crmalcolm]

cham·pi·on (chmp-n)
n.
1. One that wins first place or first prize in a competition.
2. One that is clearly superior or has the attributes of a winner: a champion at teaching.

role model
n.
A person who serves as a model in a particular behavioral or social role for another person to emulate.

As you say, it definitely is a matter of words. 'mind approach, attitude' sound more like behaviour than a winner to me?

[helterskelter]

I would define the mind approach and so on what makes a simple winner a serial winner, like Priaulx, Senna, Zanardi and so on. That's why I rate them as Champions rather than simple winners. But don't get me wrong, a winner is an extraordinary achiever, too, but the people I call 'champions' and you call 'role models' have that something special that makes them different from the rest of the crowd.

[awrb]

You seem to be taking champion to mean 'someone who wins a championship and I like'. For years a champion has been used as 'someone who won the championship'. Why re-write the english language.

Anyway, I think we have established that Muller was as deserved a championship winner as Priaulx. Not a champion in some people's eyes but one of the best drivers i've ever seen, whether he likes the press or not.

[helterskelter]

Have you ever heard of Priaulx's story, that he came to winning three world championships in a row and the european title starting from a second hand Volvo and a caravan, leaving his family, his future wife and his job, chasing for a dream? Did you know he had to sell his house to keep on racing? Did you know that he trained in a sauna wearing his whole racing outfit (helmet included), doing kickboxing to get used to the heat he was going to suffer in Dubai at the very last meeting of the 2004 Etcc, where he won against Dirk Muller who scored no points, while he took 2 second places?
So, here's what a champion means to me: not just a person I like, but someone who can teach you something good for your everyday life, too. Of course I know that the world 'champion' refers to someone who won a championship, but I tend to give it this kind of meaning, that the driver has to be great in every aspect of his personality, not just the driving. Everyone should read Andy's autobiography, it teaches you that if you have a dream and you strongly believe in it, something special will happen. I'm in the same situation as he was in those days, and his example keeps me going. Sorry if you like Muller better, I just don't, because I also look at the person, not just the wins. And surely Muller is one of the best touring car drivers in the world, though not the best, IMO, but it's not something I'm going to start a discussion about because it's all about personal opinions, and you hardly change someone's opinion just by posting a reply on a thread.

[Dani Filth]

but do you actually know Muller's story ?? .. maybe it wasnt a 2nd hand Volvo .. but worse .. a 2nd hand Peugeot ..

racing drivers don't have to be likeable to be champions .. i don't like Hamilton . but for me to say he wasn't a champion .. would be stupid ..

and plus . have you taken into consideration Mullers racing in others series .. like Andros Trophy where he dominated .. he even did LM and Dakar

if you really want to put Priaulx on a pedestal .. call him a SuperChampion or something .. but give Muller what he deserves .. he deserves to be called a Champion at least ..

[crmalcolm]

So would someone who has a really unpleasant character, who was born to a rich family, and had a fortune spent on them throughout their career, who then went on to win multiple titles not be a champion?

We understand that your opinion of Priaulx differs to that of Muller, but why use words with one meaning, to define something totally different.

What concerns me is that in your writing, do you need to add a list of assumed definitions to words so that the reader can understand your interpretation of a word's meaning.

Surely it would aid both yourself and your readers to use words in the context of their generally accepted definition. That way, if you'd described Muller as undeserving to be called a role-model or example, you could have clarified this view easily, but by saying he isn't a champion in your eyes you have had to re-write part of the english language!

[Super Hans]

Senna wasn't really a great role-model on-track. He wrapped up the title in 1990 by deliberately causing a high-speed collision.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

if I had a kid about 8, 9 years old, who is just starting karting and is looking for a model, I would suggest him Priaulx or Senna, Mansell or Zanardi as a model....On the other hand, people like the ones I mentioned have something more in their hearts that makes them special. I think grit, kindness, humanity, humility are as important as talent and speed in order to be complete drivers.

Mansell? Humility? Are you having a laugh?

[awrb]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Sorry if you like Muller better, I just don't, because I also look at the person, not just the wins.

No one claimed to like Muller more. I'm a Priaulx fan, but I think that Muller is a fantastic driver and a great champion. I also think that 'looking at the person' is very difficult to do from where we are. no one will come across right through the media, and while Priaulx comes across like a really nice person, perhaps Muller just doesn't like interviews, or is too busy thinking about racing. i'm sure he's a really nice bloke, but maybe preocupied on race day.

[helterskelter]

I have met all of the drivers we talked about, I didn't qualify myself as a journalist the first time, and I had absolutely different reactions. Just think that Priaulx didn't know me at all but he gave me his racing gloves, signed them to me and said 'For you, not for E-Bay', and I'll never forget that. So it's not just what comes across the media, I've had the privilege to live a few weekends by the side of Priaulx, Jorg Muller, Farfus, Rydell, Yvan Muller, Tarquini, Menu, Larini, Huff, Thompson, and I can tell you that it's not just about the media, but about the way they talk to you. Corthals and Yvan are the same kind of people, when you don't know somthing and you ask them they treat you like rubbish because you know less than you do so you don't deserve their respect. Also, press is only there to talk about drivers, which makes them popular, and they should know that if you're in a world championship you have to mantain good relationships with the media, it's part of their job, and if they do it the wrong way, well, it's just a mistake. One thing that made me feel the difference between Yvan and Andy is that minutes before getting into the car the Seat driver gets a massage, triple world champion chats away to the team and makes them comfortable. Not that having a massage is wrong, but this shows a whole different approach to the job between the two and, personally, I repeat, PERSONALLY, I like Priaulx's better, and so does the track, so far.
As for Senna, in 1990 something weird had happened about the side of the pole position, check on youtube, he explains it very well in a press conference.
I think a definition of 'Super Champion' would best fit those people I was talking about, if you think that giving a word a different meaning based on the perspective you are looking at it makes it complicated. Maybe we do more of that in Italy than in the rest of Europe, just a different way of conceiving a discussion. From my point af view, I was just telling you what kind of meaning do I give to the word 'Champion', and I said that 'coming first in a championship' is its actual meaning, but to me it has a deeper meaning, not just what comes from the track but a lot of other stuff. This is just because I think that there are some super drivers who have something special, and there should be a difference between, for instance, Hayden and Rossi, in MotoGp. They're both great drivers, and both champions. But there has to be something different between them... That's where what I said comes from.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

As for Senna, in 1990 something weird had happened about the side of the pole position, check on youtube, he explains it very well in a press conference.

He was rightfully annoyed with JM Balestre with regards to the grid layout but that doesn't excuse his subsequent actions, in my opinion. But hey, I've taken this thread OT so I'll leave it there.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

I think a definition of 'Super Champion' would best fit those people I was talking about, if you think that giving a word a different meaning based on the perspective you are looking at it makes it complicated.

I don't understand why a new word is needed, or even an adaptation of an old word. Priaulx and Muller are both champions, but you prefer Priaulx as a person. It's as simple as that.

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Corthals and Yvan are the same kind of people, when you don't know somthing and you ask them they treat you like rubbish because you know less than you do so you don't deserve their respect.

I don't know about Muller, but I know that the Corthals you describe there is definitely not the Corthals I know. The Corthals I know is an enthousiastic and very friendly guy.

Originally Posted by helterskelter

I think a definition of 'Super Champion' would best fit those people I was talking about, if you think that giving a word a different meaning based on the perspective you are looking at it makes it complicated.

I think 'personal hero' or 'idol' would be a better definition

[werner]

It may be different when you have to work with them, but personally I don't give a f#ck about how nice a driver is. I just like to watch the most talented drivers give their best shot trying to win a race. If I want to see 'role models' I watch the Nobel-peaceprize-giving ceremony.
Offcourse the behaviour of drivers becomes interesting when it may influence their results on the track. For instance a very timide driver and a more aggresive driver may behave differently when they see their competitor leave a gap the size of 0.8 car.

[helterskelter]

I explained it wrongly again, probably. I'm not talking about being nice, well at least not just that. I'm talking about a whole attitude, which is what makes a driver so special. I mean, lots of drivers have won championships, but have you ever wondered why only some of them are remembered as heroes? If a driver meditates, walks in the sand before races, shows friendly to everyone, has deep interest in spirituality, is obsessive about details, is strong, determined, maybe stubborn, if he comes from having nothing up to a world championship, then it's different than just getting into a car and doing your job. At least, this is my opinion. But, please note, I'm not trying to say I'm absolutely right, but I would like you to understand the reason why I say these things, not just because Priaulx is my hero, because I'm also talking about other people. Of course Andy is someone special to me, but I also talk about Senna, Mansell, Zanardi, even Gilles Villeneuve... I just feel they have something more. But it doesn't make Hamilton, Alonso or Yvan Muller less champions. That's why I thought a new word should be used to indicate that 'something' I think only a few drivers have

[werner]

I don't think a champion who meditates, walks in the sand before races, shows friendly to everyone, has deep interest in spirituality, is obsessive about details, is strong, determined, maybe stubborn will get any more credits from me than a champion who doesn't.
If you want my credits for being an special champion, you would have to win a championship that you shouldn't have won. For instance with a slower car, or with a lot of bad luck, or with some incredible racewins, or with everybody wanting you to lose, or with a stronger-than-ever competition.
Or you would have to win just a lot of championships offcourse, like Giovanardi, Priaulx, Schneider, Schumacher, Prost, Senna or Rossi.

[Super Hans]

If I'm honest I find Andy Priaulx a bit bland. However, that doesn't make him less of a champion in my eyes.

[helterskelter]

Ok, in my eyes it makes him more of a champion, instead, because it makes him special. And not that winning against Schnitzer with a semi-private BMW in ETCC 2004 was easy... It was fantastic.
As for Priaulx being bland, please clarify what do you mean by it. If you mean he's a calm and nice guy I agree, if you think he doesn't have a strong carachter, then I think you're wrong.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

As for Priaulx being bland, please clarify what do you mean by it. If you mean he's a calm and nice guy I agree, if you think he doesn't have a strong carachter, then I think you're wrong.

I find him quite plain and uninspiring out of the car. That's not to say I don't think he's a decent guy, or a great driver.

The point I'm trying to make is that we all have our favourites, but a champion is a champion. You dislike Muller's personality, so you try to denigrate his achievements.

In my opinion, that's not right.

[helterskelter]

I'm not denigrating Muller, I said many times that I think he's an absolutely talented driver, I'm not questioning that, and he is a worthy World Champion. Having said that, finding Priaulx uninspiring sounds a little weird to me, maybe you don't know him that well as a person. Having met him and his wife, they are absolutely a model, not just for a driver but also for someone who dreams for a serene and happy life. My opinion, though

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

I'm not denigrating Muller, I said many times that I think he's an absolutely talented driver, I'm not questioning that, and he is a worthy World Champion. Having said that, finding Priaulx uninspiring sounds a little weird to me, maybe you don't know him that well as a person. Having met him and his wife, they are absolutely a model, not just for a driver but also for someone who dreams for a serene and happy life. My opinion, though

The very defenition of uninspiring for many. What is the point you're trying to make with this thread? That you like some people better than others? What a bloody surprise.