Formula BMW UK

[runshaw]

You can't say they stepped across to Renault, when in fact they stepped "up"! Ask James yourself if you really want, he describes it as a "step-up "!!!

[ukracing]

F3 - Josh Fisher, Tim Bridgman, Bruno Senna, Christian Bakkerudd more than stepped into Renault

[runshaw]

No-one ever said that Renault had more FBMW graduates in it than F3.

[No 4]

A look at the respective lap times will show that Formula Renault cars are several seconds faster than FBMW cars, which by comparison look and are slow. Therefore, how anyone can argue that going from FMBW to FR is anything less than a step up is beyond me. By the way, only Bakerudd is making a fist of F3. Perhaps the other 3 would have benefited from running in FR before moving to F3!?

[bella]

fisher's gone to a completely different class though, so you can't really do an accurate comparison. and the less said about bridgman the better.

senna has done pretty well, despite the inevitable rant about testing and so on, and arguably better than bakkerud who's got the best people to learn from (i think i stole that thought off another poster, but i forget who).

aside from that i'd say it's not really a good way of judging the value of either formula. does it reflect well on frenault that jason tahinci has driven a f1 car? i don't think so. looking at something that's decided by money like the next series a driver chooses isn't going to give you an idea.

fbmw might be slower, but i don't think that puts it lower on the ladder than frenault. they're at about the same level in terms of what a driver can gain from them, and it goes without saying that they're completely different from formula 3.

[Mathias]

Have to say that I've found watching FBMW more interesting than watching FRenault. The latter cars might actually BE faster, but to me, somehow, the BMWs LOOK quicker. Maybe it's that they look more on edge? I've always found FRenault to be a bit like the old F3000 - a tad on the processional side. However, I freely admit to not having seen as much of any of them as perhaps I should before making sweeping generalisations, so don't shoot me down yet.

[runshaw]

Originally Posted by No 4

A look at the respective lap times will show that Formula Renault cars are several seconds faster than FBMW cars, which by comparison look and are slow. Therefore, how anyone can argue that going from FMBW to FR is anything less than a step up is beyond me. By the way, only Bakerudd is making a fist of F3. Perhaps the other 3 would have benefited from running in FR before moving to F3!?

Ahh No 4 you took the words right out of my mouth! It is obvious that Frenault is a step up from FBMW as I have said before. FRenaults are indeed a lot quicker than FBMWs, BMWs are only very slightly quicker than Formula Fords, and you have to admit that drivers regularly step up from FF to FR.

Basically- FBMW and FF are on the same level, the first step on the motorsport ladder, and FR is a step up. BMW wanted their series to be more on the same level as FF and not become a rival series to FRenault.

And I think drivers can gain a lot from both FBMW and FRenault, but ultimately you can gain more in Renault. They have bigger wings with more settings that you can adjust, and the aerodynamic downforce is much greater than it is in BMW= You learn more.

[Zurich]

Originally Posted by runshaw

You can't say they stepped across to Renault, when in fact they stepped "up"! Ask James yourself if you really want, he describes it as a "step-up "!!!

I'm talking about a step-up as a driver doing well enough in a series to graduate to the next level of the ladder. Neither Sutton nor Keen did well enough in BMW to consider Renault a step up. You will never see a driver win the Formula BMW Championship and move into Formula Renault - it is not a step up.

[Zurich]

Originally Posted by Mathias

Have to say that I've found watching FBMW more interesting than watching FRenault. The latter cars might actually BE faster, but to me, somehow, the BMWs LOOK quicker. Maybe it's that they look more on edge?

BMWs certainly move around more and provide infinitely more action than the Renaults. They are around 3-4 seconds a lap slower and they're even quieter. It is a more difficult car to drive quickly though, the Renault is a lot more stable on the edge.

[runshaw]

Originally Posted by Zurich

BMWs certainly move around more and provide infinitely more action than the Renaults. They are around 3-4 seconds a lap slower and they're even quieter. It is a more difficult car to drive quickly though, the Renault is a lot more stable on the edge.

Yeah it is obvious just watching them on track they are sliding around loads, the Renaults are more stable I guess because of their wings which create a lot more downforce than BMWs do, and so they are more glued to the track. Thats why BMWs are much more fun to watch!!

[Zurich]

Originally Posted by runshaw

FBMW and FF are on the same level, the first step on the motorsport ladder, and FR is a step up.

That's what I thought before this season too.

BMW wanted their series to be more on the same level as FF and not become a rival series to FRenault.

That is not the aim of BMW.

I think drivers can gain a lot from both FBMW and FRenault, but ultimately you can gain more in Renault. They have bigger wings with more settings that you can adjust, and the aerodynamic downforce is much greater than it is in BMW= You learn more.

In the junior formulae, the greater the downforce the less a driver learns about how to drive a car. With so relatively little power, the grip will always considerably outweigh power.

There's nothing wrong with Formula Renault. As a concept it is still the best training ground for F3. But unless it changes, over the next couple of years BMW will probably offer drivers more and could well become more popular for drivers coming out of FFord or karting. But BMW is another option on the same level of the ladder, not a step below. As I said before, you will never ever see a BMW champion move into Renault.

Formula BMW is still very new. The drivers that will come out of it this year will be at a higher level than the drivers that came out of it last year because the series is much improved and a lot stronger than last year. Just because it's slower than Renault doesn't make it inferior.

[runshaw]

Originally Posted by Zurich

In the junior formulae, the greater the downforce the less a driver learns about how to drive a car. With so relatively little power, the grip will always considerably outweigh power.

Yes Formula Ford offers solely mechanical grip and no aerodynamics at all, and many people argue that FF is still the best place to start- so I suppose a driver does learn more with less downforce.

There's nothing wrong with Formula Renault. As a concept it is still the best training ground for F3. But unless it changes, over the next couple of years BMW will probably offer drivers more and could well become more popular for drivers coming out of FFord or karting.

Now this I don't understand. If you come out of Formula Ford- you certainly do not step up into FBMW. They are on exactly the same level as each other. That can only be seen as a step sideways.

[ukracing]

BMW has the same driving style as F3 and so their graduates will in tune get to grips with the car better, Renaults have to be drivin like there on the edge even though they may not look like it, the realities are much different to what you lot are saying much different.

[bella]

they don't get as much to fiddle with in terms of the setup as they do in f3 though surely?

[runshaw]

No they don't

[runshaw]

Originally Posted by ukracing

BMW has the same driving style as F3 and so their graduates will in tune get to grips with the car better

Really?? Im sure that Lewis Hamilton, Paul Di Resta, James Rossiter, Mike Conway, Lucas Di Grassi etc etc all did fairly well coming from Frenault. The best FBMW graduates have been Bakkerud, who hasn't shone AS much as the list I just wrote and Sebatian Vettel in the Euroseries. Yes FBMW are mini F3 cars and have to therefore be driven in the same style, but from what i've seen, Renault graduates seem a whole lot better acclimatising to F3 than BMW graduates do.

[Mackmot]

It used to be that you would do Formula Ford, FVJ or similar and if you werent very good (ie didnt win the championship) then you would do FR, FForward, FVL, EFDA etc.

Nowadays none of them are any good and FR, FBMW teach nothing so who cares. All I know is that every team boss in F3 keeps asking why we (FF level teams) havent trained their monkeys.

[runshaw]

Lol! It does seem that people still think FF is still the best training ground, and I personally think it is, mechanical grip is better to learn about first. Plus the thing with FF is that you learn racecraft better because the racing is always so bloody close IMO. The graduates of FF are always better than BMW also IMO- Charlie Kimball, Dan Clarke etc, just look at Bridgman

[strider]

Charlie Kimball and, to a lesser extent, Dan Clarke have done pretty well this year as ex-FFord monkeys!

FBMW may look more like 'grown-up' racing cars, but I'd say FFord is just as good a training ground for F3.

[ukracing]

Might just be that Formula Ford has been around longer but it has no place any more its as usless as its teams whos in it now, bar JLR there all monkeys out there

[Mackmot]

No Im a chimp actually, ask Bella.

[No 4]

When the MSA published their championship ladder a year or so back, this was the structure they set out, in descending order.

Level 1: Formula 1
Level 2: GP2
Level 3: Formula Renault (one make series) and Formula 3 (open series).
Level 4: Formula BMW (one make series) and Formula Ford (open series).

Following this moving from FBMW to either FR or F3 is a step up. Fact.

[ukracing]

Cant have Renault / BMW & Ford in different levels all are starter formula. All require the same licence level to enter. Formula Renault is seen as a sideways more than a step up u will find drivers will either do FR of BMW no ones does Ford now unless they have no money and then they will move to F3.

[Murray Talker]

There is no contest. This years F3 championship has shown that BMW and Renault are not credible schooling formula. FF is king. Ideal staircase for the future should be as follows;

Karting
FF 1600 (no aero)
FF 2000 (a little aero)
F3
F1 / GT / IRL / Champ

BUT key is to convince the wannabe racing driver dads who feed this industry and wanna show off to their mates that FF is cooler than the look alike one makers

Considering their relative lack of experience with aero Charlie Kimball and Dan Clarke have been the stars of F3. Charlie struggled until Parente joined Carlin but now with the extra experience available to him Charlie's talent has shone through. Dan Clarke hasn't had the advantage of an experienced team mate but has also shown that FF is the way.

Will Joe D'Agostino be the next FF star to shine.

Regards

Chas Cole

[runshaw]

Originally Posted by Murray Talker

There is no contest. This years F3 championship has shown that BMW and Renault are not credible schooling formula. FF is king. Ideal staircase for the future should be as follows;

Karting
FF 1600 (no aero)
FF 2000 (a little aero)
F3
F1 / GT / IRL / Champ

I agree that FF is better. But why is it that you have listed FF1600 and FF2000? Ok i know FF1600 has had a resurgence of late, but why FF2000? There isn't even a Uk FF2000 series- you are Clarke's main guy aren't you- so why didn't you put FF Zetec (1800)??