[Official] British Grand Prix 2021: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 10 of 23

[S griffin]

I doubt it, Red Bull have at least achieved a lot of success. Rich Energy are just a bunch of chancers who have done nothing special and are completely unrecognisable outside of racing. So Red Bull have at least some standards

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I doubt it, Red Bull have at least achieved a lot of success. Rich Energy are just a bunch of chancers who have done nothing special and are completely unrecognisable outside of racing. So Red Bull have at least some standards

Slipping fast now in many people's estimation though....

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

The way Max drives, with him throwing the car all over the road and blocking / cutting other drivers off, I am surprised he isn’t involved in more incidents.

Yes, the very same Max that has a whopping total of zero penalty points on his license.

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

the problem as i see it for RB is that as long as this goes on, Max is going to have to drive to a 'cleaner' standard lest they allow Merc the upper hand or anger the FIA into being less receptive to RB concerns.

to win this years title, elbows will have to be out and by dragging this one incident on they may be stopping Max from being his aggressive (and frankly his best) self.

time will tell, but RB are seriously handling this in the wrong way imo. one would almost say its like RB has never fought for a title before.

is Horner making this about himself and his battle with Toto more then is about Max winning a title?

I'm wondering if there's some internal stress that is causing red bull to carry it on so far. I'm just speculating, but losing honda after this year, maybe seeing an increase in expenses with taking over the engine development, and now having to write off a car and dig into spares earlier, potentially costing them more in both money and points if they end up with penalties, I just wonder if they're trying to find every angle even beyond the ordinary to level the playing field with mercedes. It's also got to be galling that not only are they up against a much more well funded team, but the horseshoe shone again for hamilton in getting off unscathed from the incident. Well, unscathed thanks to the red flag, which hamilton mostly caused.... maybe it's about the added costs that are making them uncomfortable?

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

Quite fascinating reading the comments on the Motorsport Facebook thread with respect to the "Review" ... A good percentage looking forward to Max getting a penalty, and a very small percentage thinking that Red Bull are doing themselves any good.



Personally I think that Horner talking about them considering all their "sporting options" somewhat ironic

This must be a commentariat with a specific location in majority...

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Yes, the very same Max that has a whopping total of zero penalty points on his license.

Also the same max that has been told more than once to go ahead and use more of the "track" since hamilton was getting away with all race... until race control finally started policing it once max began doing it....

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Yes, the very same Max that has a whopping total of zero penalty points on his license.

Just because he has zero points on his licence, doesnt mean he isnt involved in incidents....

Portugul last year twice, pushing hamilton off at Imola this year, even horner admitted if hamilton hadnt jumped out of the way in Barcelona theyd have ended up in the fence.

The way hes been blocking drivers and throwing it up the inside has been borderline...its required complience from other drivers to jump out of the way to avoid accidents. I suspect if those drivers werent so complient, Maxs licence wouldnt be looking so rosey...

for contrast, Lando is one penalty away from a race ban, noone would consider him to be a dirty driver or on the edge...licence points dont paint the full picture.

[S griffin]

I think maybe some are a bit harsh about Verstappen, he doesn't get involved in that many incidents, although he's been close a few times. I'd say what happened at Imola was 50/50. He did get a bit too close in Barcelona I admit, again it was a tough one to call

I think he has improved in some ways and is getting better with racecraft, that's how he's kept his licence clean

However I agree it's ridiculous how Lando is one penalty away from a race ban for minor incidents. Something not right with the penalty points there

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I think maybe some are a bit harsh about Verstappen, he doesn't get involved in that many incidents, although he's been close a few times. I'd say what happened at Imola was 50/50. He did get a bit too close in Barcelona I admit, again it was a tough one to call

I think he has improved in some ways and is getting better with racecraft, that's how he's kept his licence clean

However I agree it's ridiculous how Lando is one penalty away from a race ban for minor incidents. Something not right with the penalty points there

Im not saying he gets involved all the time, of course he doesnt....certainly in the last 18 months his incident rate has decreased substancially which comes with age and maturity...i think we forget how young he is even with his level of experience.

I was just agreeing with the sentiment above from others that he is 'on the edge' in his driving, and the fact he hasnt had more incidents is often down to others having the common sense to back out.

[Skam85]

And yet Hamilton's incident rate in the past 18 months has increased...

Senility?

Funny how Max not getting involved in many incidents is all down to how good the other drivers are... but nothing to do with Max himself of course.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Skam85

And yet Hamilton's incident rate in the past 18 months has increased...

Senility?

Funny how Max not getting involved in many incidents is all down to how good the other drivers are... but nothing to do with Max himself of course.

i didnt say it was ALL down to other drivers....but it is partially. Even Horner admitted it himself in Spain.

Of course Max is an amazing talent, but that doesnt mean he isnt boarderline in his driving which requires drivers to be complient with him. If every driver drove in the same uncompromising way, there would be quite a few more accidents i suspect.

Why is it that these days things have to be black/ white, right/ wrong and that conversations get twisted into ALL or nothing arguments....

...there is a grey area in between where it can be a combination of factors.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Funny how Max not getting involved in many incidents is all down to how good the other drivers are... but nothing to do with Max himself of course.

You are very smart at very subtly twisting what people say, just a little, but enough to alter meaning. Verstappen drives very aggressively, including putting his car into positions where other drivers have a choice between backing out or colliding. All the great drivers do that - bullying your rivals is a characteristic of champions. It’s other drivers’ problem if they choose to back down like this. It’s nothing to do with their skill, in fact probably the opposite. But of course, you already knew that…

The oddity of this is that no collision usually means no penalty. Maybe if other drivers had held their ground more in recent races and seasons, there would have been more collisions and more points - for Verstappen and for others. Perhaps the setting of such boundaries would also have given Red Bull and Verstappen a better sense of when to fight for every corner and when to be patient. And less of the blind outrage when someone doesn’t back down.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Skam85

And yet Hamilton's incident rate in the past 18 months has increased...

If we are looking at penalty points, then you also have to take into consideration why they were issues.

Hamilton currently has 4 points - 2 for causing a collision, and 2 for entering the pit lane while closed. In the past 18 months, the only other points for a collision were at the 2020 Austrian GP for causing a collision with Albon.

The current penalty points system was introduced in 2014. Since that time, Max is join highest in terms of points received (21 along with Romain Grosjean). Lewis has received 12 points in that time.
Max has received 8 points for causing a collision in his time in F1, Lewis 6.

So yes, I will readily agree with the statement that Lewis has picked up more penalty points than Max in the last 18 months for causing a collision. That total in the last 18 months stands at 4, of which 2 of them have expired.

However I still think there is merit in the argument that Max's driving style meant that he picked up a lot of points early in his career, and other drivers now react around him in a different manner. Being awarded the most penalty points in a season once could be seen as a solitary issue, but being awarded the most twice suggests a consistent pattern.

One thing I also found interesting (in terms of what is tolerated within a team from their drivers) is that fact that since the penalty points system was introduced, the most points in a season have been awarded to Red Bull drivers 4 times in 7 seasons.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

One thing I also found interesting (in terms of what is tolerated within a team from their drivers) is that fact that since the penalty points system was introduced, the most points in a season have been awarded to Red Bull drivers 4 times in 7 seasons.

^^ that’s a very interesting factoid.

[S griffin]

Of course the penalty points system doesn’t tell the full story, but it’s interesting reading nonetheless

[john ruston]

Interesting discussion
Wonder how many experts on here have driven a single seater round Copse or whatever number the corner is in new speak.
One of those electronic toys does not count.

It’s all nonsense but viewer figures may well hold up against Olympics because of it! That what Eff 1 wants

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Interesting discussion
Wonder how many experts on here have driven a single seater round Copse or whatever number the corner is in new speak.
One of those electronic toys does not count.

It’s all nonsense but viewer figures may well hold up against Olympics because of it! That what Eff 1 wants

Of course it is. What happened at Silverstone has been manna from Heaven for 'Eff 1'.....

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Wonder how many experts on here have driven a single seater round Copse

To be fair, if that was the qualification for discussion, the forum would be a pretty quiet place. You might not think that a bad thing .

[Beau2]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

If we are looking at penalty points, then you also have to take into consideration why they were issues.

Hamilton currently has 4 points - 2 for causing a collision, and 2 for entering the pit lane while closed. In the past 18 months, the only other points for a collision were at the 2020 Austrian GP for causing a collision with Albon.

The current penalty points system was introduced in 2014. Since that time, Max is join highest in terms of points received (21 along with Romain Grosjean). Lewis has received 12 points in that time.
Max has received 8 points for causing a collision in his time in F1, Lewis 6.

So yes, I will readily agree with the statement that Lewis has picked up more penalty points than Max in the last 18 months for causing a collision. That total in the last 18 months stands at 4, of which 2 of them have expired.

However I still think there is merit in the argument that Max's driving style meant that he picked up a lot of points early in his career, and other drivers now react around him in a different manner. Being awarded the most penalty points in a season once could be seen as a solitary issue, but being awarded the most twice suggests a consistent pattern.

One thing I also found interesting (in terms of what is tolerated within a team from their drivers) is that fact that since the penalty points system was introduced, the most points in a season have been awarded to Red Bull drivers 4 times in 7 seasons.

Another interesting fact; all 6 of Hamilton's points from collisions have come from his front left hitting the rear right wheel of Red Bull cars whilst battling through right hand bends.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Beau2

Another interesting fact; all 6 of Hamilton's points from collisions have come from his front left hitting the rear right wheel of Red Bull cars whilst battling through right hand bends.

You'd think Red Bull drivers would have learnt by now

[john ruston]

Are we to deduce RB are weak in that area?
Well played lad.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Of course it is. What happened at Silverstone has been manna from Heaven for 'Eff 1'.....

Watching an hour of cricket on Sky, and Lewis Hamilton has made contact with the rear right of a Red Bull about 20 times........

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Yes, the very same Max that has a whopping total of zero penalty points on his license.

I’m speaking over the last few years, not just this year.

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Perhaps it is when you have a team principal saying bluntly that a corner which has seen overtaking for many many years should not be seen as an overtaking possibility. Plus two drivers, neither of whom were prepared to back down. I don't think Lewis stayed away from the inside, as others have said, he couldn't have steered closer at the speed he was doing. But I do think that Max expected Lewis to back down just as he expected him to do at the first corner ....

Doesn't this just prove it was Hamilton's fault? He didn't stay away from the inside, but he couldn't get to the inside... because of the speed he was doing... meaning he was going too fast for his line through the corner, meaning he should have backed off.

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

I think the most amusing aspect of this entire saga is that you do not read to read the post to work out each poster's opinion, you just need to look at their flag below the avatar.

Been saying it for years...

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

60:40 Lewis fault IMO. The penalty was actually too harsh IMO - I'd have done the 5.

My view is: Lewis is a lot more alongside than the Dutched flag users are claiming. He was so far alongside that Max saw him and turned out of the corner and then hard back in. So lets not pretend Lewis wasn't close enough. The fault comes where Lewis missed the apex and was scrubbing off speed from understeer. That extended Maxes gap.

Also, can we talk about how there was so little chance of Max making the first corner? Copse is not a corner you can run around the outside of properly. Leclerc didn't bail to survive - he bailed because you can't really do it at that speed. And it wouldn't have been the first corner Max missed in that lap, would it?

Mostly Lewis fault. But if you're going to race people like that, every so often you have to accept you'll get caught in an accident.

Also, anyone saying RBR or Mercedes are a disgrace for trying to influence the stewards must be new to the sport. They all do it. Every single one of them. Not a single person in the paddock is innocent of that. And that is very much a case of "don't hate the player, hate the game".

The gloves are off now.

So you're saying... location checks out?

He was under steering and missing the apex... meaning he had no right to be there as "his" corner.

Originally Posted by FFSM

Both of them are to blame.

If you’re Max, you know Lewis is there. You make sure you give him room for error, he’s human. If you’re Lewis, when you know you’re not making the apex perfectly, you have to back off! At that speed, any “off” is not going to be pretty. If we have to assign blame, the fact that it’s Lewis’ front hitting Max’s rear, makes it fairly simple to my mind. Horner is right when he says Copse is not usually a place to make a move.

Anyway, it makes it all the more exciting now. Can’t imagine Max being anything other than fully committed in any move against Lewis, wherever the opportunity arises…

Yep!

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

It could be interpreted that he was unable to make the apex because Verstappen didn't make it possible for him to do so. Nobody knows whether if he had been given more space he could have made it around the bend safely, even at that speed.

How much more space than 1.5 car width did he need, as a champion driver? If that speed was too high, sounds like you're seeing who was at fault...

[sizzle]

Please be friday afternoon

[Skam85]

I think I might change my avatar flag to Switzerland.

That should confuse everyone considering Buemi hasn't been in F1 since 2011.