Sports Sedans

[ASSA Member]

Firstly it is nice to see some discussion about the Sport Sedan category, I have been an avid follower of this class for 15 years now! Its an interesting class simply because of the variety of body shapes and engine combinations, the engineering that goes into the cars and the spectacle of them tearing around the track is awesome.

Few points :
- The renaming of the class Tranzam/ Sport Sedans was a bad move, I think it angered quite a few long time SS competitors. It basically mirrored what was done 10 years earlier with Thundersports to accommodate for 3 cars and a whole heap of others that never turned up to race. The same thing basically happened when the change to the Australian GT championship took place in the early 1980s to let the 935 Porsches race. It's amazing how history repeats itself in this class!

- As has already been pointed out the simple fact is the cars are expensive to build and race, this alone turns a lot of people off.
The class will find it hard to attract newly built cars because of the costs and the time involved to build a car and get it racing competitively. I also get the impression that a lot of people aren't that overly interested in building up insanely quick and unique race cars anymore, the old "tinkerer" culture is slowly disappearing from the scene. Besides the V8s one make turn key race series and production based classes seem to get all the new competitors and the attention.

- The fact that the class doesn't get any decent coverage in print media or TV also makes it hard to attract sponsorship to help finance it all. There are a committed bunch of diehards competitors who continue on with racing in the category though because they love the freedoms and the performance it offers. However if it is to grow the class needs some new blood, some competitors in the national series have been doing it for nearly 20 years, what will happen when these guys decide to give it away.

- I think there might be a bit of "us and them" mentality between the state and national competitors, which might explain the lack of support for National series. Many competitors running in a state series struggle to do that by itself so it more then likely the old not enough money problem which prevents them from supporting the National series. Others may simply not be interested in taking part in race meeting where they will be a back marker with no chance of being up front.

[Robert Ryan]

I also get the impression that a lot of people aren't that overly interested in building up insanely quick and unique race cars anymore, the old "tinkerer" culture is slowly disappearing from the scene. Besides the V8s one make turn key race series and production based classes seem to get all the new competitors and the attention.

If the National Series had been like an "Australian Trans Am" with turnkey cars(No not US bodied ones), than it would still be very healthy. "The "Tinkeres" with not a lot of money could be racing hillclimbs and clubbie events.

[Robert Ryan]

The average Trans Am car costs as much a V8Supercar development car, new, older ones were much cheaper. Even Speedway does not have many "tinkerer's", Super Sedans , Midgets , Sprintcars have "brand name" chassis. It all helps to cut costs at a fairly professional level, or you lack the expertise to do it successfully yourself.

[FIL]

Originally Posted by johnny yuma

At one point in SS history a proposal was "parent block" along with "profile".
Add original configuration[front engine,rear wheel drive or whatever] and ban
space frame chassis,then you have a recipe for street relevant,make vs make,budget entry but imagination the limit racing.This was the SS drawcard as a support and then a main category.Then they turned into spaceships and everybody got bored and/or went broke .

Sounds a lot like the Western Australian Street Car class.... which, after looking like it was going to be killed off by Improved Production for a few years, now looks like it will have a nationally approved set of rules, meaning that while the class will only race in WA for now, if enough people want to do it, then the class will be able to get up in other states too...

[Gherkin]

guys its probably time to face the facts most of the Sports Sedans are now tired and have long outlived thier intended life.

I helped one of the the NZ tranzams when they visited and they were great but they raced in front of a crowd of 100 people and got no TV or exposure let alone any financial assistance at the time they visited I think they were keen to come back wernt confident that there was a class to return for

[ASSA Member]

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

If the National Series had been like an "Australian Trans Am" with turnkey cars(No not US bodied ones), than it would still be very healthy. "The "Tinkeres" with not a lot of money could be racing hillclimbs and clubbie events.

I am not so sure about that, sure a common chassis would be a cost effective measure but reverting to some of the Trans Am rules i.e live axle only and no EFI would make a lot of the current cars ineligible.

In my opinion the Sport Sedans greatest attraction is the variety of machinery. Granted the Chev V8 is the dominant power plant but there are also other engine combinations out there all having a go and doing pretty well i.e Garry's Motorsport tyres RX7 with a Nissan SR20 turbo.Added to this the use of local, US, Japanese and Euro body shapes and you get a field of tough looking cars that all look different.

The problem for the national series is the number of cars, they simply need more to make it viable. As long as there is no decent financial assistance through sponsorship for the competitors and to pay for TV coverage which will help attract more interest/sponsorship money the class will have a hard time.

The cars are by no means tired, they're quicker then they've ever been and there are plenty of late model shapes out there now, not a bunch of clapped out Toranas.
Spectators have always loved this class and when it used to run with the Super Trucks at Oran Park in the mid to late 1990s it used to pull a strong crowd thanks mainly to the investment of Ron O'Brien (O'Brien Aluminium) and to a degree Oran Park Motorsport.

The category just needs some finances behind it and someone with the right vision to direct it and get it where it needs to be. The money issue though has and always will be the main problem.

[Robert Ryan]

[I am not so sure about that, sure a common chassis would be a cost effective measure but reverting to some of the Trans Am rules i.e live axle only and no EFI would make a lot of the current cars ineligible.

I not talking about the current cars, but a new series. What should have been . Or could be, if someone wants to revamp the class at the National Level(wishful thinking here)

reverting to some of the Trans Am rules

Not necessarily strictly Trans Am type chassis or rules, but a similar concept for an Australian series. Australian bodies, including Japanese, European ones sold here.
The Money issue is a problem and so is car supply. Money will follow "newish cars" ,bit hard for an automotive supplier to give their full support to historic body types. As well the extreme variety now comes from all the homebuilt cars, some pretty successful in their execution, others needing a bit more improvement.

Spectators have always loved this class and when it used to run with the Super Trucks at Oran Park in the mid to late 1990s it used to pull a strong crowd thanks mainly to the investment of Ron O'Brien (O'Brien Aluminium) and to a degree Oran Park Motorsport

I know I was there. The problem I could see then , that the owner/driver had to do everything. So there was added expense in building/ developing the cars. Bit hard if you wanted to run at the "sharp end" and did not have the time/ resources to build a car for yourself. So the class as it stands at the moment restricts "new blood" because of those requirements.
People who want to build their own cars because it is cheaper/ or they like "tinkering", can do that at a club level. If Sports Sedans had structure similar to what they had in the US for Trans Am, then new blood would keep on coming in

[Robert Ryan]

[QUOTE][I am not so sure about that, sure a common chassis would be a cost effective measure but reverting to some of the Trans Am rules i.e live axle only and no EFI would make a lot of the current cars ineligible.

/QUOTE]
I not talking about the current cars, but a new series. What should have been .

reverting to some of the Trans Am rules

Not necessarily strichtly Trans Am type chassis or rules, but a similar concept for an Australian series. Australian bodies, including Japanese, European ones sold here.
The Money issue is a problem and so is car supply. Money will follow "newish cars" bit hard for an automotive supplier to give their full support to historic body types. As well the extreme variety now comes from all the homebuilt cars, some pretty successful in their execution, others needing a bit more improvement.

Spectators have always loved this class and when it used to run with the Super Trucks at Oran Park in the mid to late 1990s it used to pull a strong crowd thanks mainly to the investment of Ron O'Brien (O'Brien Aluminium) and to a degree Oran Park Motorsport

I know I was there. The problem I could see then , that the owner/driver had to do everything. So there was added expense in building/ developing the cars. Bit hard if you wanted to run at the "sharp end" and did not have the time/ resources to build a car for yourself. So the class as it stands at the moment restricts "new blood" because of those requirements.
People who want to build their own cars because it is cheaper/ or they want to, can do that at a club level. If Sports Sedans had structure similar to what they had in the US for Trans Am, then new blood would keep on coming in

[Robert Ryan]

The cars are by no means tired, they're quicker then they've ever been and there are plenty of late model shapes out there now, not a bunch of clapped out Toranas.

Tony Ricciardello's Alfa is how old? Darren Hossack has a brand new car in the works, but that is about it as far as current(within 2 yrs) cars go.

[Gherkin]

Guys you dont need new rules you just need the people that own cars to drag them out of the chicken coupe and take them to the same race track on the same day, please no more discussion of new classes

[Robert Ryan]

Guys you dont need new rules you just need the people that own cars to drag them out of the chicken coupe and take them to the same race track on the same day, please no more discussion of new classes]

They have been trying that,or at least several people have been trying that even pleading to get that to happen.As one very well known Competitior said to me. "It is like herding cats"

[Robert Ryan]

That is why this thread has started.

[Gherkin]

Funny Robert I have looked at your fisrt post and it certainly looks to me like you are advocating more rule changes?
Perhaps you should build yourself a whole heap of new chassis and see if some one then wants them

[Robert Ryan]

Actually, that is what some competitiors want to kick start the catergory. At least save it from oblivion as a National series.

[DAVID PATERSON]

Robert, if you are so keen to see the owner of the barrow you are pushing so furiously, build and sell all these chassis, why not tell him to build them to the current rules, then they can run WITH the existing cars, not instead of them. Surely, this will maximise the fields.

[Robert Ryan]

Robert, if you are so keen to see the owner of the barrow you are pushing so furiously, build and sell all these chassis, why not tell him to build them to the current rules, then they can run WITH the existing cars, not instead of them. Surely, this will maximise the fields

David , I know where you are coming from. But it is not one person pushing for this, several are. The Person who could build them has been contacted about doing this, he is NOT a roadracer. The problem is of course MONEY or the lack of it. Great idea, but needs money to happen and people willing to get behind it, from Sports Sedans or elsewhere.
The standardized chassis WOULD Be built to the current rules. Something similar is being tried in New Zealand , I wait and see if they run with it.

[Robert Ryan]

The reason I raised it, in this forum, is to see idea floated a bit more widely.

[Robert Ryan]

The New Zealand "generic chassis"

BRENNAN RACING LTD IS PROUD TO ANNOUNCE THAT IT WILL BE CONSTRUCTING CARS AND CHASSIS FOR THE NZ SUPER SEDAN SERIES - These will be supplied and contracted to run exclusively with the class

THE TOTAL NUMBER IS YET UNKNOWN BUT A MINIMUM OF 5 AND PERHAPS AS MANY AS 20 DEPENDING ON INTEREST SHOWN.

CHASSIS WILL BE OF THE LATEST DESIGN AND INCORPORATING ALL OF THE FEATURES FOUND IN THE CURRENT BRENNAN CAMARO CHASSIS AND WILL INCLUDE MANY NEW UPDATES DEVELOPED BY OURSELVES AND THE LEADERS IN ROAD RACE TECHNOLOGY IN THE USA.

THE BENEFITS OF BUYING A BRENNAN CHASSIS WILL BE THAT:

*THEY WILL COME COMPLETE WITH FRONT AND REAR CLIPS, FRONT

A –ARMS , SPINDLES, BEARINGS ETC, 5 ON 5 HUBS OR CENTRE LOCK HUBS, POWER ASSISTED STEERING RACK,STEERING SHAFT,FRONT SWAY BAR WITH DROPPERS.

*THEY WILL COME POWDERCOATED AND READY TO ASSEMBLE

*ALL STEERING GEOMETRY WILL BE SORTED

*RACE PROVEN TO WORK

*PROVEN TO STAND UP TO THE PUNISHMENT WITHOUT FAILURE OR

FATIGUE COMMONLY FOUND IN OTHER CHASSIS

*STRESS RELIEVED AND SHOT BLASTED USING ALLOY OXIDE

*STRONG BUT LIGHTWEIGHT DESIGN-CARS CAN EASILY BE

CONSTRUCTED TO WEIGH IN AT UNDER 1000KG

*COST EFFECTIVE WITH ALL THE HARD WORK DONE

*CARS CAN BE COMPLETED BY USING DONOR CAR, SECOND HAND OR

NEW COMPONENTS ALL WITHIN PURCHASERS BUDGET

*BRENNAN RACING ASSISTANCE WITH ALL MEASUREMENTS FOR

OBTAINING PARTS TO COMPLETE AND OTHER TECHNICAL

SPECIFICATIONS THAT ARE NOT NORMALLY FREELY AVAILABLE

MULTIPLE BODY CHOICES AVAILABLE WITH SPACE FRAME.

BUY ONE AND BUILD IT SLOWLY IN YOUR GARAGE OR HAVE OURSELVES OR SOMEONE ELSE COMPLETE FOR YOU. ONLY 4 WEEKS TO COMPLETE FROM THIS STAGE.

$25,000.00 PLUS GST - See “Link” Page for Brennan Racing Contact details

[Robert Ryan]

By the way the New Zealand Chassis builder has absolutely nothing to do with the thing I am talking about. They also did it in Trans Am as well.In fact every form of non-production racing has specialized chassis builders who do a "run " of cars. Except Sports Sedans.

[Gherkin]

Robert, Grant does make a nice car and they are very well priced, however its unfortunate that he has always led a crusade in NZ to swim against the tide with his policy of not competing against the regular series and instead choosing to start yet another class, I hope this is not what you are advocating for Australia

[Robert Ryan]

I hope this is not what you are advocating for Australia

No, that fragmentation in NZ is just plain silly. Hopefully with some adjustments all the three NZ series will come together makes sense.
My feeling if people are interested in Sports Sedans, they will do something that will ensure the long term survival of the class. I hate to be on another thread in 2 or three years time, reminising about what Sports Sedans could have become as a result of them being dropped as catergory.

[auzziemonza]

Step One. Professional Category Management.
Step Two: Try and convince CAMS that the Category Manager does not need to be slogged $50K+ for a worthless agreement with the AMRC to be stuffed around by CAMS in trying to get the Championship back on track!
Step Three: Category Manager goes to AMRS (AASA)
Step Four: Progress possible.
Step Five:Phase in new regs over 3 years.

New Regs.

Championship is for "Drivers" and "Manufacturers" (ie 2 Champions)

Drivers - Most points. Manufacturers - (parent body/engine) most points.

The Manufacturer Title may be a key to getting the 'other manufacturers' involved in racing again. Toyota, BMW, Nissan, MB, Mitsubishi all have suitable body shapes and available engines (multi valve/6 litre/turbo)!

What say a Camry with one of the Toyota Nascar Truck engines in it, 5 speed Holinger, 9" etc or a new Magna with a Mopar, ditto trans/diff? Those cars would have street cred and marketing value (more than bumping around in the bush impressing no one) and compete with V8SC (with Manufacturer PR support) with Holden & Ford!

Key new regs (to be phased in over 3 years)

- Phase out Transaxles.
- Max 5 speed g'box directly behind engine
- Rear of engine block no further back than forward windscreen line.
- Double A arm wishbone suspension on front (no rocker arm)
- Control front upright
- Live rear end, 5 or 6 link
- Spaceframe chassis (front/rear clip version?)
-etc, etc, etc

Just grab a copy of the IMSA AA/GT rules from about 1976 or check out any articles on Moffat's Monza - that is how Sports Sedans can get back.

[Robert Ryan]

Yep keep the ideas flowing..your on the right track.. Now you need the manufacturers and someone with money.Also the older cars need to be included as well, but at least 15-20 "new" cars to get a revamped catergory off the ground.

[Chucky]

It'll never work. It makes too much sense!!

[Peter Nightingale]

Originally Posted by Gherkin

Guys you dont need new rules you just need the people that own cars to drag them out of the chicken coupe and take them to the same race track on the same day, please no more discussion of new classes

How very right you are on the points you have made