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7 Aug 2007, 06:54 (Ref:1983133) | #51 | |||
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7 Aug 2007, 07:43 (Ref:1983159) | #52 | ||
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naturally there's some exceptions. some (like gonzalez this year, duran last year) just have the skill and vision. most quite rightly just have to learn. and why learn in a series with silly wings and barge boards that are going to cost you a fortune? |
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7 Aug 2007, 07:46 (Ref:1983161) | #53 | ||
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7 Aug 2007, 08:02 (Ref:1983169) | #54 | ||
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F3 does produce some good races - Monza is usually good because of the massive wide straights. Spa too. But far too many are processional affairs, mainly because of the aero effects. Wouldn't disagree with the last point - but it's still much more difficult to overtake in F3 (or Formula Renault) than in FF - hence the accidents. And vastly more difficult in F1, even with a big performance advantage, as Alonso will testify after last weekend. |
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7 Aug 2007, 08:32 (Ref:1983193) | #55 | |
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do you not think it's just down to people not knowing how to overtake? even in the dull races there will be one or two moves from the usual suspects. f3 isn't f1 - the cars aero doesn't stop overtaking completely. that's more down to the circuits, like you say, spa and monza are better.
it's more difficult to overtake in f3, but either a smart driver or a proper racer will see when it's possible and not possible and make it stick either by being imaginative or being firm. it doesn't take long to work out what your car can do, and work out how you can make it do it. that's where being a good driver is different to being a bad driver. |
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7 Aug 2007, 10:41 (Ref:1983275) | #56 | ||
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As I see it drivers who come out of karting into spec series really are not that good at overtaking...
Multichassis racing if well regulated will always provide better racing as the cars have different abilities - there may be one car thats super quick on the straight but turn in slow or medium turns another maybe the slower all round but on average the same pace overall, another car maybe great in the turns but slow on the fast bits - but again giving the same result - this all gives good racing and of course overtaking. In a spec series the fastest driver (with the best crew) starts at the front and unless he throws it off or the car breaks he will win the race. As I said before big aero does not cripple overtaking if properly regulated ground effect floors are fitted - which is the one reason GP2 is good, but why can't F3 have a spec floor ("removes the engineering challenge they all cry" - but look at LMP's they have a spec floor and they are all different). |
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7 Aug 2007, 11:43 (Ref:1983327) | #57 | ||
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Anyone else not feeling the Fahrvergnügen in here?
So VW and Toyota are racing now in Euro F3 and Asia, is the plan 2008 for BF3? Which teams? Great discussion, seems to run deep with more than a few people. As you were. |
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7 Aug 2007, 12:00 (Ref:1983342) | #58 | ||||
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7 Aug 2007, 12:36 (Ref:1983366) | #59 | ||
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Not heard of any plans of it coming here but it must be a matter of time - we won't see the top spec Toyotas or Honda here any time soon
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7 Aug 2007, 13:57 (Ref:1983432) | #60 | |
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i think the interesting thing about f3 is the fact that each branch of the series is completely different. you can have a same broad specification, but still have a considerable amount of variation in cars, tecchie bits, and engines. and then they all come together once or twice a year for events like macau and zandvoort.
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7 Aug 2007, 14:23 (Ref:1983446) | #61 | ||
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A case in point is Duran whom you mention. He looked the business in National Class and (to my surprize) very ordinary when he moved up. What about Esteban Guerierri or Asmer. How would they all compare in the same car? Frankly I have no real idea. But back the aero thing. Lots of aero is always bad for overtaking because it reduces braking distances. Front wings are a particular nuisance because of the interference that the car in front causes - giving understeer onto the straight you hope to overtake on. And F3 is particularly bad because it has a lot of aero, but (relatively) little power So its slow on the straignts and quick round the bends - reducing braking distance even further (or removing the need for braking at all). |
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7 Aug 2007, 14:35 (Ref:1983451) | #62 | |||||
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i'm not saying anything you're saying doesn't stack up, but a sum total of none of it is specific to formula 3 versus formula renault or formula bmw. |
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7 Aug 2007, 17:35 (Ref:1983545) | #63 | ||
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[QUOTE=bella] i think that was an unfortunate team choice... .[/QUOTE Nop - quite deliberate. Hitech are clearly going very well this year. Without knowing how this year's car differs from previous year's, I can't make a sensible judgement about Duran. |
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8 Aug 2007, 07:23 (Ref:1983765) | #64 | |||
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I don't know what magic Marko Asmer has wrought on Hitech this year, but the fact is that previously they had only ever won 3 races in total. Duran, whom I rate highly like you, should have stayed with Roly Vincini, whom he respected and who had the ability to get the best out of him. The relationship with Hitech never gelled, for whatever reason. |
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8 Aug 2007, 07:37 (Ref:1983769) | #65 | ||
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They're running the engine this week in France. Is it behind closed doors?
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Karting - why are there so many categories!? |
8 Aug 2007, 08:18 (Ref:1983787) | #66 | ||
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While the other chassis and engines DOES add technical interest, it makes the class 3 times the cost it needs to be and seriously damages its credibility as a drivers championship. The downside, to me, far outweighs the upside. |
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8 Aug 2007, 09:59 (Ref:1983878) | #67 | ||
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There's really no such thing as a drivers' championship. Even with "equal" equipment, the better teams will turn out better cars - GP2 being a good example. GP2 is a currently a less even playing field that F3ES or BF3, it seems to me. |
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8 Aug 2007, 12:33 (Ref:1984011) | #68 | ||
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You're forgetting Formula Palmar Audi. That's about as equal as possible.
Anyway, back on topic, how effective do we expect the VW F3 engine to be? More of the same, awesome or useless? |
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8 Aug 2007, 12:38 (Ref:1984017) | #69 | ||
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Dont know, but it took the merc engine a few years to be competitive
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8 Aug 2007, 14:28 (Ref:1984077) | #70 | ||
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Although the front is dominated by Dallara/Mercedes teams are allowed to change any component they like within F3 regs. So not all Dallara Mercedes are the same. Given that setup alone can make a vast difference anyway, the last thing you want to allow (if you want to maintain costs and have some semblance of a level playing field is to allow aero and suspension etc changes). As you imply there isn't such a thing as a driver's championship. Is that satisfactory when success in F3 is key to getting to F1 as you rightly state?!! Re experimenting with different components - one make series such as Formula Renault offers almost all the adjustments a driver would call for, and a one-make F3 could, of course, so the same. Drivers don't alter the design of components, only engineers do that. I can't comment about WSR or GP2 as a level playing field - we haven't raced there - but it's pretty clear that the playing field is far from level in Britain or Europe. It really comes down to whether you are concerned about the best driver or the best team winning. Clearly if you are driver's supporter it will be the former, if a team's then it will be the latter. |
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8 Aug 2007, 17:01 (Ref:1984188) | #71 | |||||
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Aero does not spoil the racing, fact is F3 cars can overtake its just the drivers either don't know how (see bellas post re FFord), or don't have the balls. I've been banging on for some time about Grosjean and Gonzalez as super drivers because the can overtake! The reason F3 is quite dull racing wise is that the drivers are all very similar, with background in Karting then spec series. Quote:
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The playing field in Motorsport will never be level, the closest you will ever get is FPA. Otherwise you need a clever driver and clever engineers. That doesn't cost a lot though if you do it right - theres a hell of a lot of very clever people floating round for pennies, a subscription to racecar engineering or similar will show you a few of them very quickly. For a long time I've felt that an underfunded team with a strong driver, good mechanics and very clever engineers could do very well indeed in BF3. So maybe the playing field is level when you start but with a Dallara Merc Hewland what chance do you stand against teams which have been running the same combo for years... but if you took a Lola-VW-Drexler/Pankl I think you could perform well for less money - plus you'd likely get very good engineering assistance from Lola |
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8 Aug 2007, 19:33 (Ref:1984307) | #72 | |||||
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Thats actually not 100% true a good driver should be able to work with the engineers to develop the car - an aero engineer doesn't improve the car on his own, nor does a data engineer, or a mechanical engineer, or a driver. They all work together to produce a result. Its the same way a driver does not set up a car but the whole team does. [/QUOTE Perhaps not 100% - perhaps 99. In any case a wind tunnel costs several thousand pounds an HOUR to hire, so there is no liklihood of underfunded drivers and teams using them. But unfortunately well funded teams can... Quote:
But that is just set-up - not the sort of radical re-engineering that some F3 teams can afford. Quote:
We've worked with quite a lot of them - so we know about the talent out there. But unfortunately there are (very) talented engineers working in the top teams too. If it were that easy to beat the likes of Carlin (or ASm or ...) on a modest budget, someone would have got close to doing it. The only case I can think of is Robbie Kerr - and that was only because Courtney, who was much faster, decided to stall at the start, get injured and lose it (and Robbie did a good job). Quote:
There was little wrong with the concept of FPA - it produced F3 performance on a much smaller budget. We could debate about why it didn't succeed in it's original form - but it certainly wasn't because there was anything wrong with the principles. |
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8 Aug 2007, 20:27 (Ref:1984348) | #73 | ||||||
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Read Carroll Smith, Valkenburgh etc.. its been borne out time after time, if you can't beat the masters playing it thier way play it a different way and you may get to the same place faster of better. Quote:
I urge anyone vaguely involved in motor racing, as a driver, engineer, father of either etc to read 'the unfair advantage' by mark donohue his test programme would still stand up today I reckon (bar aero - for that read racing in the rain by John Horsman) FPA - I'm a huge fan of it actually - it does prove the driver and at a good point and if I was advising a driver where to go it would be first season or 2 in vee to learn the tracks and about racing, and getting the licence up - the cheapest way to do it in a open wheeler btw, then a season or 2 in UKFF, then a season or 2 in FPA, then a season or 2 in F3... a long gestation perhaps but you'll have a very very sorted driver who will have a long pro career. Only thing thats missing in FPA is car development - a suggestion I made a while back was to give each driver a 5k budget to develop the car - now they could spend that any way they please but boy would they learn (plus its too little for them to do too much so the cars can always go back to the standard spec at the end of the year) On the topic of F3 engines - they are too expensive, mainly down to the restrictor, I think restricting fuel flow would be a cheaper way to go or adopting Super 2000 engine specs. |
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8 Aug 2007, 20:35 (Ref:1984360) | #74 | |||
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just having a re read of this (great debate btw) and I just wanted to come back to something said earlier
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8 Aug 2007, 21:10 (Ref:1984405) | #75 | ||
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Indeed, as you probably know, there is a strong school of thought that suggests you are better generating downforce through ground effects rather than wings - at least then you don't you don't get the issue of understeer caused by disturbing the airflow over the front wing. But in the final analysis to get sensible amounts of overtaking you need long braking zones and that either means vast straights or reduced downforce. F1 has gone for the long straights at new circuits - but that is an expensive route and consignes circuits like Monaco to history as far as racing is concerned. In F3 A decent driver can defend circuits like Brands Indy and Knockhill from now til Christmas without giving a following driver a sniff - however good. But back to Lola, I suspect they have taken to Germany because to compete with the likes of Carlin or ASM would cost too much money - even if their car is, in its standard form, basically as good as a standard Dallara. It's a sensible move because success there will allow them to attract more teams and drivers, and hence data, so they ultimately may take on Dallara in GB or Europe. But it will cost someone a lot of money. Which is why F3 costs 3 times as much as Formula Renault. |
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