Zsolt 'rubbish'

[Tweed]

Pantano is on another level to Baumgartner, he's streets ahead, IMO. He just looked particularly bad at Jordan for whatever reason.

[ensign14]

Pantano was screwed, no testing, no attention, nothing. Pantano was a racewinner in F3000 in his debut season...

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally Posted by Skam85

I can. Pantano was very ordinary. As was Bruni. Gene was rubbish when he came in for Ralf, da Matta was dire as well.

All of those guys are theoretically better than Zsolt, but none of them really proved it behind the wheel, other than maybe da Matta, who compared quite well to Panis and was genreally better than Zonta after being replaced. Pantano struggled under the circumstances of having an awkward car and a lack of support, and I suspect that though Zsolt could've dealt with that situation better, Pantano as more ultimate potential, and I hope we haven't seen the last of him.

[Skam85]

He'll probably get the Minardi drive.

[Ryo28]

Perhaps Baumgartner will get another chance - this is what Paul Stoddart had to say about the chioce of second driver:

"First of all he is European. He has been racing in Formula One before and he has driven for Minardi before. That's all I can say thus far."
http://www.f1racing.net/en/news.php?newsID=75514

Could be Zsolt then...but more likely Nicholas Kiesa. Although Pantano has driven the Minardi 2 seater before...

[BootsOntheSide]

Kiesa has to be the favourite, although Baumgartner, Verstappen and maybe even Davidson are possible. Out of this Nicolas is probably the least promising choice, but he might've matured a bit from 2003, and he has at least won major races in other formulae.

[Kicking-back]

I think people rating Baumgartner on this thread may be over-impressed with him because expectations were so low.

He was still usually slower than the disappointing Bruni throughout the season.

[Mekola]

And he just achieved the ability to finish races, that helped him too much to finish 8th at Indianápolis and 9th in Monaco.
You´re right, K-B.

[hakim]

baumgartner got better as the year went along..imo got the better of bruni too!

[Logrence]

Originally Posted by knowlesy

Zsolt ain't no champion in the making, but he kind of impressed me during 2004. He never trashed the car, he always gave his best and ultimately he scored Minardis only point, and deservedly so.

The fact that he drove like an old woman all year is hardly praiseworthy.

Fact is, if he was any good he'd be driving somewhere better.

May as well just send him off to one of those Le Mans-sportscar-endurance-touring-majigs they send all the rubbish ex-F1 drivers to.

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally Posted by Logrence

May as well just send him off to one of those Le Mans-sportscar-endurance-touring-majigs they send all the rubbish ex-F1 drivers to.

You really don't have a clue what you're talking about, do you? At least it Touring Cars and sportscars there's far more emphasis on the machinery, and you can't let the technology help you out and mask your problems. Driving through the night doing 8 hours' worth of driving over a single day is not an easy option, and I'm sure the top sportscar teams don't fele that they're signing rubbish drivers who aren't good enough for F1.

[Logrence]

Hey...this is the F1 forum...at least I'm not going into the sportscar forums and going on about how bad it all is.

*ahem*

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by ensign14

More headlines from F1 Racing:

Sun "comes up in morning"

Fire is hot

Bears **** in woods

Too Funny

[stido]

Heya Peeps,

Ok maybe he's paid to get where he is, but consider this,

Heidfeld has been in f1 for a few years now, and Jordan IS better than Minardi,

Heidfeld scored 3 top 10 placings and failed to finish 7 races. on the other hand, Zsolt also scored 3 top 10 placings and also failed to finish 7 races (hes new to f1 u can expect that).

Heidfeld moves to williams, Baumgartners on his arse what can u say??

for his first season, i think people should cut ripping him off! Mark Webber only scored 1 more point when he was in minardi.

Cheers

Stido

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by stido

Heidfeld scored 3 top 10 placings and failed to finish 7 races. on the other hand, Zsolt also scored 3 top 10 placings and also failed to finish 7 races (hes new to f1 u can expect that).

Sorry to say that analysis totally over-simplifies things.

[stido]

what i am trying to say is, results wise, Heidfeld has a few YEARS f1 race experience, and a superior car to that of baumgartners, unyet they basicly did exactly the same. Heidfeld moves up into a top notch team, whereas a rookie such as baumgartner who performed equally to heidfeld and Webber (only scoring points in one race) gets booted.

You cannot say that baumgartner is ****, when he performes equally to a racer who has years of experience, that was baumgartners learning year in a budget team, to beat someone who is moving to williams, is quite an achievement.

Instead of dissing him, learn from him, i dont see u racing in f1, so i cant see how u can rip someone off when u cant even get to where he is now.

Cheers

Stido

[Rpepperell]

ok, yeah, webber didnt score many points with minardi, but when you think about it, is minardi really a valid proving ground? sure, baumgartner has potential, he's in F1, isn't he? I'd rather wait and see if he gets a drive with a mid field team before i go judging him ay.

and stido, jordan ain't much betta...

Russell

[stido]

ok even if we were to say Jordan and Minardi were equal, Zsolt still performed well for his first year, and equaled the same amount of finishes, top 10 finishes, DNF's of a person who has been in f1 3 times as long.

But people still believe Baumgartner doesnt deserve a drive, ok if thats the case neither is Heidfeld.

Cheers

Stido

[Rpepperell]

you have a point stido (yes, that does include jordan and minardi being equal...), but obviously Heidfeld has shown some potential when he drove for Sauber and Prost, otherwise why would Williams have signed him?

[stido]

yes that is true, but u also have to remember that he started in a midfeild team, and has slowly been taken to the bottom of the grid (Jordan). by all means i am not trying to say heidfeld is a **** driver, im just saying baumgartner isnt eithr, if baumgartner was given the same opportunities as heidfeld, he may even be better than him.

Even M.Schumacher said he could not win in a minardi, so just for arguments sake, if Schumacher only scored 1 point for minardi, would that make him not worthy for a good drive? hehe, like rpepperell said, it is hard to judge someones efforts when they are in the budget/slow teams.

whos to say, if baumgartner was put in a ferrari, he wouldnt be on the same pace as michael?

I think zsolt did as well as he could given the opportunity he was given. lets face it if it wasnt for virtually every single car crashing in australia 2002 mark webber may not have scored any ppoints at all. would that have made him not worthy of his BMW race drive?

Cheers

Stido

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by stido

). by all means i am not trying to say heidfeld is a **** driver, im just saying baumgartner isnt eithr, if baumgartner was given the same opportunities as heidfeld, he may even be better than him.

The actual evidence of their entire careers suggests otherwise.

Back in F3000 - a series where everyone has the same car - Zsolt struggled to score points, Heidfeld was a champion.

Even M.Schumacher said he could not win in a minardi, so just for arguments sake, if Schumacher only scored 1 point for minardi, would that make him not worthy for a good drive? hehe, like rpepperell said, it is hard to judge someones efforts when they are in the budget/slow teams.

whos to say, if baumgartner was put in a ferrari, he wouldnt be on the same pace as michael?

Just about anyone who's watched either of them actually drive, rather than just glancing at a results sheet can easily draw that conclusion.

I think zsolt did as well as he could given the opportunity he was given. lets face it if it wasnt for virtually every single car crashing in australia 2002 mark webber may not have scored any ppoints at all. would that have made him not worthy of his BMW race drive?

Cheers

Stido

Mark Webber's drive at Williams has not got a lot to do with finishing 5th in that race - it's about seeing potential from how he actually drives the car.

[stido]

F3000 and F1 are 2 different kettles of fish. maybe baumgartner did struggle, but in F1 he didnt do too badly in comparison to Heidfeld.

Mark Webber's drive at Williams has not got a lot to do with finishing 5th in that race - it's about seeing potential from how he actually drives the car.

yes, that is true they have now seen him drive for 3 seasons and think its the right time to bring him onboard.

This is how Webber continued in f1 with Jaguar.

-Jaguar was at a low, still. Australias response to an australian racing once again in f1 was huge, good marketing on Jags behalf.
-Webber did what seemed impossible and finished a race in 5th for minardi
- and obviosly the guy has talent. If Jag hadnt offered him the deal, he would have gone testing, as no other team would take the risk.

Just about anyone who's watched either of them actually drive, rather than just glancing at a results sheet can easily draw that conclusion.

it is hard to see how anyone drives, when cars are so different,

Ferrari - multi million dollar budget, dream to drive kind of car, you can throw alot more at the car.
Minardi - scraping the bowl for money, car handles the way it looks on track (not too healthily in comparison to most teams) u cant throw too much at a car you cant trust or doesnt feel right.

Seriously look at Takuma Sato in 2002 the crash man, crashed every single race practicly and although he didnt get a race drive the next year, BAR pick him up and look where he is now.

to me Baumgartner proved himself alot more than sato did in his first year.

infact webber and sato have a bit in common, both only scoring points at their home grand prix in their debut season, both being the only F1 driver for their country (good for marketing as i said earlier) now both are getting there. I do not see why baumgartner would be any different.

Also plenty of f1 drivers have had to pay for a drive, doesnt mean they werent damn fast, just meant they werent recognised untill they payed to race.

Cheers

Stido

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by stido

F3000 and F1 are 2 different kettles of fish. maybe baumgartner did struggle, but in F1 he didnt do too badly in comparison to Heidfeld.

He was 3 seconds off. Even a 41 year old with less experience than a karter can manage that.

Originally Posted by stido

Seriously look at Takuma Sato in 2002 the crash man, crashed every single race practicly and although he didnt get a race drive the next year, BAR pick him up and look where he is now.

to me Baumgartner proved himself alot more than sato did in his first year.

I'm a Sato fan, but even were I not I would heartily disagree. Sato showed a lot, LOT more in terms of sheer raw speed - and remember a lot of accidents were not his fault. He outdrove Button at times last season, and Button was able to outdrive Ralf in his debut season; whom has Zsolt outdriven? The overrated Bruni? Any other team mate in any other formula ever?

[stido]

Originally Posted by ensign14

He was 3 seconds off. Even a 41 year old with less experience than a karter can manage that.

id like to see that, especially being in a minardi :P Minardi- no matter what track, or who drives for the team has always been around 3 seconds off the pace. INCLUDING Webber (very overated i must say even though im an Aussie)

Originally Posted by ensign14

whom has Zsolt outdriven?

wasnt having a go at Sato before either lol i quite like him (more than button :P) but yeah u have to remember Sato last season was in a BAR, and now he can outdrive people. last season was Zsolts first season, and he did outdrive Bruni, but when ur in a minardi, the only guys u can outdrive is your teammate, and maybe if your lucky, the jordans. Baumgartner equalled 3 top 10 finishes and 7 DNFS same as Heidfeld, with 3 years F1 experience. so in some races Baumgartner outdrove heidfeld.

most overated driver IMO is Villeneuve :P

Cheers

Stido

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by stido

id like to see that, especially being in a minardi :P

No, I meant Zsolt was 3 seconds off Heidfeld in the same car. Chanoch Nissany has been at a similar comparative pace.