Group A BMW 635 CSi - a popular, solid performer - Page 35

**chunterer** · 11 Nov 2011, 19:40 (Ref:2984490)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Climaxms

Right... Finally worked out how to upload without the sound going funny.
Here's the new improved link...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KF1hSo4hEXg

Jody please, please get her out in this next year!!

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=130844

FLORENT MOULIN · 14 Nov 2011, 18:09 (Ref:2986261)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunterer

Hi Florent

Maybe you would like to do this next year, spread the word my friend!

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=130844

Might be an idea....

**chunterer** · 14 Nov 2011, 20:18 (Ref:2986336)

Great, hope you can find the time to lodge your entry with the organisers!!

Sorry to divert this thread folks but it is kind of relevant!

FLORENT MOULIN · 30 Nov 2011, 22:13 (Ref:2993692)

Dear All,

Here is an interesting video from french round of ETCC 1986 at Nogaro.

The same WE was also the French Superproduction race, amazing cars.

For french speaking ones, listen the great analysis from Dieudionné.

All the best,

Florent

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzsol...ayer_embedded#!

at 4.20min my car furtively shows from behind, race number 39 driven by Dupraz ( new owner ) and Bassot

The following poster from 1987 race WE at Nogaro, first round of French Championship which shows my car took the picture from the 1986 ETCC race.

Arkrite · 3 Dec 2011, 08:46 (Ref:2994688)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ian beckett

Doing some research in preparation to build a model of the JPS backed Jim Richards Group A 635 but cannot find a decent picture showing the colour and type of the seatbelts fitted.All I can come up with are pictures suggesting they may have been a goldish/beige colour.Recent restoration pictures have the car fitted with red Sabelt versions but I am fairly sure these were not used in period.Any help anyone? Thanks in advance Ian.

They were a slightly dirty yellow colour brand name. Dominion Cheers

KA · 14 Dec 2011, 17:38 (Ref:2999783)

Quote:

Originally Posted by KA

Found the later version of the Buxtorf paintjob- and yes, the pink spots were replaced by yellow diamonds by the time of the Thruxton shunt that pretty much ended Buxtorf's BTCC season...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLIwu...eature=related

There are now pics for tquite a few 1988 ETC rounds, and it seems that the Buxtorf 635 (the ex-Stuck Cheylesmore car now with Jody Halse) changed livery for each race of it's short 1988 season

Seen in the paddock at Round 1 Silverstone in plain black...
http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...ne%20BTCC.html

By Oulton, it had gained pink spots...
http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...on%20Park.html

...which changed to yellow diamonds for Thruxton...
http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...0Thruxton.html

...and orange triangles for the Donington 1hr race
http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...on%20BTCC.html

The car didn't appear again, presumably from a combination of the evident lack of a sponsor added to the dent that the repairs from the Thruxton shunt must have made in Peter's budget...

It was next seen at the TT in September, where it was a DNQ, shared with Colin Blower. As I remember, it could be seen parked in the paddock at the end of the pit garages on race day, and was plain black.

KA · 14 Dec 2011, 18:24 (Ref:2999808)

Another purely accidental find- an article on BMW in New Zealand motorsport, including pics of 635s in the Nissan-Mobil 500 races, and quite a few I haven't seen before, like this one of the Gulson ex-JPS 635, appearing as late as 1991

http://www.nzfmr.co.nz/images/bmw-hi...35csi-1991.jpg

http://www.nzfmr.co.nz/info_pages.ph...te/pages_id/46

ian beckett · 14 Dec 2011, 20:37 (Ref:2999904)

Many thanks KA for this great find! Keep on digging!! Ian.

ian beckett · 23 Dec 2011, 09:21 (Ref:3011902)

Wonderful photos Malcolm,you have brightened up a miserable damp British morning! Is it possible that you have other shots particularly of the BMW's which you may know I am trying to follow? Thanks again and also to all the guys who have added articles and race reports from this era.Ian.

**chunterer** · 23 Dec 2011, 09:44 (Ref:3011903)

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/...-10_BMW-22.jpg

Being rhd is that one one of the ex Sytner, previously CC cars that went over?

MalcolmC · 24 Dec 2011, 06:14 (Ref:3011904)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ian beckett

Is it possible that you have other shots particularly of the BMW's which you may know I am trying to follow?

Here's a few more photos of the same BMWs.
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/...10_BMW-40b.jpg
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/...10_BMW-46b.jpg
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/...10_BMW-47b.jpg
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/...10_BMW-47c.jpg

Malcolm.

MalcolmC · 24 Dec 2011, 06:44 (Ref:3011905)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunterer

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/...-10_BMW-22.jpg

Being rhd is that one one of the ex Sytner, previously CC cars that went over?

The race programme says McKellar had bought the car from Graham Lorimer. So unless Graham had more than one 635, that would be the DSIR sponsored car (it was silver at the time).
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/...2/DSIR-BMW.jpg

The above article says "The BMW 635 CSI won overall in the 1986 Nissan (Mobil) Series.." and goes on to mention engine details so I guess they're referring to this 635 rather than just the car type. According to the Nissan Mobil 500 Yearbook for 1986 the series winner was the Crosby/MacKinnon 635. (This is a poster from the Jan-87 NM500 featuring a 1986 photo).
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/..._NM500_001.jpg

I had wondered if it was also this car. For no other reason than the colour, but now that you mention it, it also happens to be RHD.
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/...2/Egg-BMWa.jpg
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/...2/Egg-BMWb.jpg
The photos are from a car show in Auckland in 2000.

Malcolm

KA · 29 Dec 2011, 08:26 (Ref:3011906)

RHD Group A 635s were always a bit of a rarity, even in the UK and Australia/NZ- even the JPS cars were LHD as I remember?

That ex-Eggenberger car throws a spanner into the works though- I don't recall Eggenberger running anything but LHD cars, so has it been converted at some point since it first landed in NZ?

The main (only?) RHD cars in Europe were the CC pair- one of which ended up in Australia with Charlie O'Brien, via Frank Sytner towards the end of 1985 (between the Silverstone TT in September and Bathurst AFAIK). AFAIK Sytner's own cars were LHD. The O'Brien car was yellow at Bathurst, but also ran in red 'State Coal' colours in NZ
http://media.photobucket.com/image/C...agic/85044.jpg
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/q...s/img046-1.jpg
As I remember, CC had a spare car, which was an early Eggenberger chassis- but was it ever converted to RHD?

Lorimer's DSIR car and the blue/yellow Crosby/MacKinnon 'Trans-Tasman Insurance' car were both RHD
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/q...s/img037-1.jpg
http://www.nzfmr.co.nz/images/bmw-hi...5-csi-1986.jpg

MalcolmC · 29 Dec 2011, 10:18 (Ref:3011907)

Quote:

Originally Posted by KA

That ex-Eggenberger car throws a spanner into the works though

I've just noticed that the photo with the letter from Eggenberger Motorsport isn't readable when I download the file from Photobucket, although the original that I uploaded isn't too bad. Can you guys read the letter?

The following is what I can make out, but I'll get the photo negative scanned tomorrow to see if it has any more resolution than print that I've scanned. The postcode after Bracknell is a rough guess.
Reading some of the '635 thread' casts some doubt on the chassis number (the RA2 numbers continuing on from the RA1 numbers, rather than going back to 01) but that part of the photo looks reasonably clear. Perhaps it's a typo in the letter.

21st November 1985

Dear Mr Hicks

We refer to you letter received on November 14th.

It took us some time to search in our records to find the information you desire to compile the history of your car.

The BMW 635CSi, Chassis no. E24-RA2-01 was built by Ruedi Eggenberger between December 82 and February 83 and competed in the European Touring Car Championship in the season of 83. It was only driven by Helmet Kelleners (D) and Umberto Grano (I) except for Johnny Cecotto who raced as third driver at the 24-hours at Spa.

We enclosed photographs of the drivers and the car in the original Team-colours. Find also attached the race schedule for the season 1983 with the final results and some additional information.

The car was sold to BMW Ltd.. Ellesfield Avenue, GB-Bracknell EG 124 TA on 10th November 1983 but that you probably know.

We hope to have been helpful to you to get all the information together you require and remain.

Sincerely yours
EGGENBERGER MOTORSPORT

KA · 29 Dec 2011, 11:50 (Ref:3011908)

Thanks Malcolm, I couldn't make out the letter in the pic, so that's exactly what I hoping you'd post!!!

IIRC, CC Motorsport kept the Eggenberger car as a spare and test car- I'm not sure if they ever raced it? As I remember, the team had a couple of significant shunts with their regular race cars (both RHD), but on both occasions, Vince Woodman seems to have sat out races until the race car was rebuilt (IIRC he sustained some injury in one of these anyway) rather than use the spare.

To recap the story of the CC Motorsport cars from the various 635 and Australian/NZ threads, the three cars were apparently sold to Frank Sytner over the winter of 1984/5, and he seems to have sold them on at various points during 1985, while continuing to race his existing white LHD cars.
The two RHD race cars went respectively to Mike Newman in the UK early in the year (Mike ran most of the BTCC season, debuting the car at Oulton in April) and Charlie O'Brien in Australia around September/October (it did the Silverstone TT in September as a second Sytner entry and O'Brien raced it at Bathurst).

IIRC, it was suggested in the 635 thread that the spare went to Belgium, but it seems to have ended up in NZ...
Big question that comes to mind, is did CC convert the car to RHD, or was it done in NZ?

The postcode for BMW GB in Ellesfield Avenue Bracknell should be RG12 8TA

MalcolmC · 29 Dec 2011, 23:40 (Ref:3011909)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MalcolmC

I'll get the photo negative scanned tomorrow to see if it has any more resolution than print that I've scanned.

Here's the new scan.
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/...2/Egg-BMWd.jpg

It's pretty much as I posted above, although the date of the letter is 1989 rather than 1985.

I've also found in the book Bathurst 1986/87, Pg 14.
"Teams had a fortnight to recover before the six hours race at Pukekohe..." (late 1985) "...an ex-Frank Sytner BMW arrived in the country and was leased to Crosby and Wellington's Lew McKinnon"

This is the car that may have been bought by Graham Lorimer and raced as the DSIR car, and may then have been sold to McKellar and painted yellow and turned up at WTCC Round 10, and just happens to be the same colour as the Eggenberger car, which was sold to BMW GB in 1983. See my Post #16 for the rather tenuous links. All the above cars being RHD.

Given that the car arrived in NZ in late '85, about a year after the Sytner/Morton car, perhaps the Crosby car did go to Belguim for a while.

Dougal said on the '635 thread' that Graham Lorimer had owned his Sytner/Morton car. This car is LHD before and after Lorimer's ownership and Lorimer's DSIR car was RHD. Changing a car to RHD here in NZ might help the local drivers feel at home, but I'm not sure why a car would be converted back to LHD when it has stayed in NZ. So perhaps Lorimer has owned two 635s?

Malcolm

MalcolmC · 30 Dec 2011, 06:17 (Ref:3011910)

Another quote from the Jan '86 Nissan Mobil 500 programme, Pg.51:
"Former world motorcycle champion (like Cecotto) Graeme Crosby hasn't had long to settle into his leased Bee-Em (like O'Brien's an ex-Frank Sytner car)..."

And from the Jan '87 Nissan Mobil 500 programme, Pg.80:
"The 32 year old Lorimer... bought the car, raced by Graeme Crosby and Lew McKinnon in the last Nissan Mobil"

Now for some more info on the Sytner/Morton car.
Also from the Jan '87 Nissan Mobil 500 programme, Pg.70/71:
"No.18, BMW635CSi, John Sorensen, Brian Musgrove.... The Bee-Em is an ex-Frank Sytner car - an '84 model - brought to NZ for Sytner and Aucklander John Morton to run in the inaugural Nissan Sport 500 and subsequently raced by Morton and Jim Richards last year."
Which means in the Oct '87 NM500/WTCC Rnd 10 this was probably the same car.
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/...-10_BMW-31.jpg
Amusingly this car is described in the book Bathurst 1986/87, Pg.19 as "...the slowest 635 in the southern hemishere - not even gentleman Jim could make it go quickly"

Malcolm

racer69 · 30 Dec 2011, 06:21 (Ref:3011911)

Don't know if this helps;

Typing in "Graeme Crosby BMW" on google brings up this pic

The "Benson & Hedges" logo on the side indicate this is a pre-Nissan/Mobil series event. It looks like its in the ex-BMW GB/CC Motorsport colours, and is RHD.

MalcolmC · 30 Dec 2011, 06:32 (Ref:3011912)

Thanks for that Racer. I'd never seen a photo of the car prior to the NM500. The photo is possibly from the 6 hour race at Pukekohe mentioned in my Post #20, straight after the car arrived in NZ.

Malcolm

KA · 30 Dec 2011, 09:29 (Ref:3011913)

Quote:

Originally Posted by racer69

Don't know if this helps;

Typing in "Graeme Crosby BMW" on google brings up this pic

The "Benson & Hedges" logo on the side indicate this is a pre-Nissan/Mobil series event. It looks like its in the ex-BMW GB/CC Motorsport colours, and is RHD.

There's no doubt about the origin of the Crosby car then....definitely one of the CC cars..
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16329766@N07/5953934518/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mendaman/5646926661/

I'm guessing it must be the 'spare' rather one of the 'race' cars- As we've said,- Mike Newman bought one early in '85, continued to race it in the BTCC until he moved on to an RS500 for 1988, and AFAIK still has it- it kept a variation of the original CC colours throughout it's race career...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mendama...57627347703055

The other was still in CC colours when it was leased by Sytner to a couple of South African drivers for the TT in September, http://www.flickr.com/photos/mendama...57627858081525

before shipping it to Australia where O'Brien had it resprayed yellow for Bathurst in October...
http://media.photobucket.com/image/c...agic/85044.jpg

...then red for the Nissan-Mobil races in Jan/Feb...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8021817...57606882601980

...where it raced against the Crosby car, now in yellow/blue 'Trans-Tasman' colours
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8021817...7606882601980/

brendonwood1 · 30 Dec 2011, 13:22 (Ref:3011914)

Browsing "Graeme Crosby BMW" on google resulted in finding this website, with a history of BMW racing in New Zealand: http://www.nzfmr.co.nz/info_pages.ph...te/pages_id/46

The article mentions that the Graeme Crosby car is the "the first ever Group A BMW 635CSi, chassis number RA001."
This may indicate that it is the ex-Eggenburger car?

MalcolmC · 30 Dec 2011, 19:23 (Ref:3011915)

Quote:

Originally Posted by KA

...then red for the Nissan-Mobil races in Jan/Feb...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8021817...57606882601980

...where it raced against the Crosby car, now in yellow/blue 'Trans-Tasman' colours
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8021817...7606882601980/

The difference in the roll cages next to the drivers helmets is very noticable in the two photos above, suggesting they originated from different workshops or were made at different times. (Were the BMW Motorsport shells supplied to the teams with roll cages fitted?)

The cage in the Eggenberger car seems to have the same diagonal tube restricting the drivers access (in RHD form at least) as the Crosby car.
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/...2/Egg-BMWb.jpg (Zoom in on the bottom photo)
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/...2/Egg-BMWa.jpg

Malcolm

**chunterer** · 30 Dec 2011, 20:24 (Ref:3011916)

Quote:

Originally Posted by KA

There's no doubt about the origin of the Crosby car then....definitely one of the CC cars..
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16329766@N07/5953934518/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mendaman/5646926661/

I'm guessing it must be the 'spare' rather one of the 'race' cars- As we've said,- Mike Newman bought one early in '85, continued to race it in the BTCC until he moved on to an RS500 for 1988, and AFAIK still has it- it kept a variation of the original CC colours throughout it's race career...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mendama...57627347703055

The other was still in CC colours when it was leased by Sytner to a couple of South African drivers for the TT in September, http://www.flickr.com/photos/mendama...57627858081525

before shipping it to Australia where O'Brien had it resprayed yellow for Bathurst in October...
http://media.photobucket.com/image/c...agic/85044.jpg

...then red for the Nissan-Mobil races in Jan/Feb...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8021817...57606882601980

...where it raced against the Crosby car, now in yellow/blue 'Trans-Tasman' colours
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8021817...7606882601980/

Hmmm....

That pic of the car in Crosby's hands is a real find by racer69!

It is rhd, but I am positive that the spare CC ex Eggenberger car was a left hooker, originally it must've been as it was built in Germany as an ETC spec car for a European based team....

So if this is that car then it really does seem to suggest that it was converted to rhd by Clarke and Cook's concern or by Sytner as mentioned as a possibility elsewhere on the forum. (I can't think Sytner would have commisoned that sort of change as it would possibly limit it's interntional re-sale interest?)

I'm sure i've got a pic in the Thruxton paddock of me standing next to the spare car in 1984 and i'm sure we've covered somewhere that this car was a left hooker, it may even have been mentioned in the 1984 Autosport Trimoco review?

I am thinking it is more likely that this Crosby car is the other rhd CC race car that Newman didn't buy from Sytner?

The 3 cars were given numbers CC29-31, although we may have found that one of them was given a new number after its rebuild?

The other thing just to note is that Woodman crashed at Donington in practice for the first Trimoco round in his then new rhd car missing the next round at Silverstone and Weaver badly shunted his car in practice for the end of May Thruxton round, again this was his regular rhd car.

As you said earlier KA, it doesn't seem as though the ex Eggenberger car was pressed into serivce though (it's one outing in their hands was the Donington 500 IIRC?) as both drivers sat out the respective races that they had their crashes prior to. Irionically the car was definitely at the meeting Weaver crashed at as that's the one where that picture of me next to it was taken at....

KA · 30 Dec 2011, 21:52 (Ref:3011917)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MalcolmC

The difference in the roll cages next to the drivers helmets is very noticable in the two photos above, suggesting they originated from different workshops or were made at different times. (Were the BMW Motorsport shells supplied to the teams with roll cages fitted?)

The cage in the Eggenberger car seems to have the same diagonal tube restricting the drivers access (in RHD form at least) as the Crosby car.
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/...2/Egg-BMWb.jpg (Zoom in on the bottom photo)
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/...2/Egg-BMWa.jpg

Malcolm

If the Crosby car is the CC Motorsport spare car, then it's a 1983-spec Eggenberger car, converted to RHD. The O'Brien car would have been a 1984-spec car, built up by CC Motorsport as an RHD car- Could CC have modified or replaced the cages of the race cars?

MalcolmC · 30 Dec 2011, 23:26 (Ref:3011918)

Looking through Frank de Jong's website, it seems that one of the RHD CC cars that was raced does have a cage like Crosby's car.
http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...0Thruxton.html

As does possibly the car that the South African's leased (refer KA's Post #24).

Malcolm

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