Group A or V8 Supercars? (Merged)

[racer69]

Originally Posted by FAS33

see thats what I dont get about it, they add all these random cars in the series, was suprisded I didnt see a Corolla running around. and against these other cars, which are proper racing cars, mustangs, camaro's, skylines, BMW's. to me seeing a Sierra's racing on this series doesnt do it for me, Those cars could be as fast as an F1 and still wouldnt interest me. were they hard to drive? it looked like it was a handful. were they interesting to see racing, let alone look at? not really.

May i ask which race you were watching? A Corolla started nearly every ATCC event between 1985 and 1992 (Wanneroo 1991 would be an exception..any others?)

They weren't random cars added to the championship, they were all cars that fully complied & were homologated to compete in International Group A, which are the regulations CAMS decided to adopt for our series.

You must remember you are looking back on this from a modern day perspective having not experience it at the time. I grew up with Group A, the first full year i remember watching completely as a 5 year old was 1988, and although it was a Sierra steam roller, i still found the cars exciting to watch and look at. It is all subjective.

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

Might've been a better option to use another make.

Oh ok.

I don't know about the other cars. But, being honest with myself if I had had absolute power at the time, I would've tried to make th ATCC correlate with what was seen on the roads at the time. I like the Sierra as a racing car as well, but it just didn't look right, even though it was accepted. The other GpA cars looked familiar and you saw similar every now and then, if not often. The Sierra? You never saw it. I would've given Nissan an "Are you being serious?" face had they come to me proposing the GTR as well

Well, not yet. I'll keep trying, though

Dick Johnson had established himself as the post-Moffat Ford hero, changing manufacturers in many ways was not an option.

He came 2nd in the 1985 ATCC, so the Mustang can hardly have been described as a bad choice.

The ATCC had been for cars correllating with what was seen on the Australian roads since 1973, with the Group C regs.

While popular with the fans, the regulations had descended into a farce by the time we got to 1984 and had no future beyonf then. Most of the competitors (not all) and CAMS advocated a change of regulations, and initially Group A was seen as a positive answer, if nothing else it took the decision making away from CAMS.

[DAVID PATERSON]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

If I had had absolute power at the time, I would've tried to make the ATCC correlate with what was seen on the roads at the time. I like the Sierra as a racing car as well, but it just didn't look right, even though it was accepted. The other GpA cars looked familiar and you saw similar every now and then, if not often. The Sierra? You never saw it. I would've given Nissan an "Are you being serious?" face had they come to me proposing the GTR as well

What would be the point of adopting a global formula if you are going to fiddle with it for the local market? Either you're a global player or you're not.

Why do people question the legitimacy of the R32 Nissan GT-R in Group A? It complied fully with the homolgation requirements, hell they built thousands of the things, they even sold them here. I remember a colleague's father going down to the local Nissan dealer and buying a brand new R32 GT-R off the showroom floor. It had as much right to compete as the Corolla, the Starion, the 635 and the Rover.

You don't ban Usain Bolt from the Olympics, just because he's too fast!

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Ah, that's right, my bad. Was the ST a 6 or has my memory completely gone?

You're memory has totally gone I'm afraid... it was a sleeved version of the 4

[chavez]

Perhaps Wooley is thinking of the 325i which despite being the baby BMW has a 6 cylinder engine.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by chavez

Perhaps Wooley is thinking of the 325i which despite being the baby BMW has a 6 cylinder engine.

I think you're probably right. That preceded the M3 and was the sparring partner of the Alfa GTV6 in the 2.5l class during the mid 80s.

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by DAVID PATERSON

What would be the point of adopting a global formula if you are going to fiddle with it for the local market?

I stunned anybody is asking me this question, tbh. As far as why Australia adopted it? You, racer69, some others can answer this question better. Fiddling with it for the local market? I would've thought the answer was obvious? Do I really need to answer further?

Originally Posted by DAVID PATERSON

Either you're a global player or you're not.

You might have to elaborate on this? I mean, regardless of what it does (as opposed to what others do), Australian domestic motorsport will be on the second tier on the world motorsport map. This is not a criticism, it how it's mainly been. Has Australian motorsport ever seriously been a global player?

Originally Posted by DAVID PATERSON

Why do people question the legitimacy of the R32 Nissan GT-R in Group A?

I think it's the "GT" part of it, when it's competing in a "T" series.

Originally Posted by DAVID PATERSON

It complied fully with the homolgation requirements, hell they built thousands of the things, they even sold them here. I remember a colleague's father going down to the local Nissan dealer and buying a brand new R32 GT-R off the showroom floor. It had as much right to compete as the Corolla, the Starion, the 635 and the Rover.

Yeah that's fine. But the car was in it's own class, and GpA should've stopped to a point. If GpA was to have some correlation to proddies, I'll use the original B12h to show you where it was at. The GT-R was competing in the outright class (a gt/sports class). The other cars would've been competing in a third tier or lower class. Do you see my pov?

Group A wasn't perfect, otherwise we'd still be using it. Making adjustments to mirror the local car scene and stopping to a point wouldn't not have been a big deal.

Originally Posted by DAVID PATERSON

You don't ban Usain Bolt from the Olympics, just because he's too fast!

No you don't. However, the GT-R competing in the atcc, I think is like a 100m sprinter competing against 400/800m runners in the 100m.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

You might have to elaborate on this? I mean, regardless of what it does (as opposed to what others do), Australian domestic motorsport will be on the second tier on the world motorsport map. This is not a criticism, it how it's mainly been. Has Australian motorsport ever seriously been a global player?

In terms of touring car racing, Australia was most certainly a global player during the Group A years.

Look at what Allan Grice (and to a lesser extent Brock) did in the Commodore in the ETCC in 1986.

Dick Johnson took his locally developed Sierra to Silverstone for the ETCC round in 1988, put it on pole and was the quickest car in the race until retiring halfway through.

It worked both ways too, adopting International Group A allowed us to host 2 rounds of the inaugural WTCC, it allowed the likes of TWR, Schnitzer, Eggenberger, Wolf etc.. to bring their cars, drivers & knowhow to Bathurst and compete on an equal footing.

Only a few examples, but these would not have been possible if Australia had 'fiddled' with the regulations.

When CAMS did 'Australian-ise' Group A rules to an extent in 1992, it produced some very good racing.

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

I think it's the "GT" part of it, when it's competing in a "T" series.

What about one of the the most revered models in Australian sedan car history, the Ford Falcon GT

The Nissan GTR's success was not just on the spec sheet, Gibson Motorsport worked bloody hard to get those cars winning and they were driven superbly too.

[Senna05]

Originally Posted by racer69

In terms of touring car racing, Australia was most certainly a global player during the Group A years.

Look at what Allan Grice (and to a lesser extent Brock) did in the Commodore in the ETCC in 1986.

Dick Johnson took his locally developed Sierra to Silverstone for the ETCC round in 1988, put it on pole and was the quickest car in the race until retiring halfway through.

It worked both ways too, adopting International Group A allowed us to host 2 rounds of the inaugural WTCC, it allowed the likes of TWR, Schnitzer, Eggenberger, Wolf etc.. to bring their cars, drivers & knowhow to Bathurst and compete on an equal footing.

Only a few examples, but these would not have been possible if Australia had 'fiddled' with the regulations.

When CAMS did 'Australian-ise' Group A rules to an extent in 1992, it produced some very good racing.



What about one of the the most revered models in Australian sedan car history, the Ford Falcon GT

The Nissan GTR's success was not just on the spec sheet, Gibson Motorsport worked bloody hard to get those cars winning and they were driven superbly too.

It says alot for Gibson that 2 years after the end of the Nissan era, they again won the ATCC, and either side of it (until the Tobacco money ran dry) they were still bloody competitive. Heck, it wasn't like the GIO GTR had anything on the Winfield ones.....

I think like most sports, we punched well above our weight. The Kings Cup from 86 is more than enough to prove that! (and it, combined with the 86 Grice Bathurst win possibly prove even Holden had a good share of the spoils in the early Gp A race...)

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by racer69

May i ask which race you were watching? A Corolla started nearly every ATCC event between 1985 and 1992 (Wanneroo 1991 would be an exception..any others?)

Lol!, sry but I just find a hatchback racing in any series quite funny.

Originally Posted by racer69

What about one of the the most revered models in Australian sedan car history, the Ford Falcon GT

The Nissan GTR's success was not just on the spec sheet, Gibson Motorsport worked bloody hard to get those cars winning and they were driven superbly too.

those XB/XD falcons looked pretty mean, I'd take one of those anyday.
Yes Mark skaife and Richards drove the cars how they should be driven, hard and fast! well they didn't need too really..

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by chavez

Perhaps Wooley is thinking of the 325i which despite being the baby BMW has a 6 cylinder engine.

Originally Posted by davyboy

I think you're probably right. That preceded the M3 and was the sparring partner of the Alfa GTV6 in the 2.5l class during the mid 80s.

Thank you. I can have an image of a 3 series in official colours making a 6cldr noise sown the back straight at Donington, but struggling to place what it was. I think you're on the money with that.

[Samwhk]

Originally Posted by FAS33

Lol!, sry but I just find a hatchback racing in any series quite funny.



those XB/XD falcons looked pretty mean, I'd take one of those anyday.
Yes Mark skaife and Richards drove the cars how they should be driven, hard and fast! well they didn't need too really..

Hatchbacks have been racing in many series for decades. Not sure why they're funny.

XB/XD? They're quite different cars FAS, sure you're not getting confused. There was another model in between them too. And no XD GT. Would've been nice though.

[GROUPA]

I loved GroupA hence the user name but I wish the cars were allowed to run in full trim eg 635csi with the 24 valve motor, M3 with hood splitters etc....

There were alot of manufactures involved and some cars that if more development was done could have been real weapons eg Supra, Maserati Bi-Turbo, Alfa 75 Turbo.

In Australia there were 3 era's of Group A being 635csi, Sierra & Nissan GT-R...I suppose you could add the E30 M3 both EVO I & II but which was the better of the 2 ? The B&H M3 took a win @ Lakeside against the GT-R's with Longhurst behind the wheel and the Cecotto (Johnny Chooklotto) & Longhurst had CAMS rev limiter problems @ Bathurst and put it in the wall in morning practice...they could have been a real chance that year.

[Speed Merchant 91]

If you think Group A was overated, then watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MisYANIBoG4

this,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MisYANIBoG4

and this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCD4dS2Nd5U

...then say with a straight face that Group A was overrated.

[db120176]

Originally Posted by Senna05

Heck, it wasn't like the GIO GTR had anything on the Winfield ones.....

I thought they were prepared by Gibson Motorsport under a customer arrangement

[DangerousMomentsHere]

Originally Posted by racer69

Dick Johnson twice investigated a 6 cylinder turbo version of the Falcon (for Group C and Group A), Ford were not interested though so it didn't get very far

Hey racer 69 that sounds very interesting, where did you read that?

Just as a side note, the GT-R wasnt all great. The Ford Sierra was faster in a straight line, the BMW's faster round corners. They Had 3 good goes at Bathurst. 1990- Lost to V8 Holden, 1991- Won fair and Square, 1992-It Rained and they still crashed.

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by DangerousMomentsHere

Hey racer 69 that sounds very interesting, where did you read that?

Just as a side note, the GT-R wasnt all great. The Ford Sierra was faster in a straight line, the BMW's faster round corners. They Had 3 good goes at Bathurst. 1990- Lost to V8 Holden, 1991- Won fair and Square, 1992-It Rained and they still crashed.

rain, crash, smashed into the wall (with some other cars)...... and they still won. unbelievable despite the circumstances eh?

[Swedish Brick]

I'm sure I recall Johnson doing turbo kits for falcons. Part of the sales pitch or left over plan b?

[DangerousMomentsHere]

Ive heard and also read somewhere on the site that Peter Brock got one of his VL-Turbos and had done a test day with it, but he changed mind after considering the tyre size and reliability it would have.

Would anyone have anymore information on this or Johnson's idea?
At least turn this thread into something we can learn from.
We all know Group-A was awesome. 1987 WTCC=Epic

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by FAS33

rain, crash, smashed into the wall (with some other cars)...... and they still won. unbelievable despite the circumstances eh?

Its no different to how the red flag rules are in most other series........................

[racer69]

Here are Dick Johnson's thoughts on the introduction of Group A in 1985, from the book 'Dick Johnson - The Real Story Of A Folk Hero'

"At that point in time we were certainly frustrated with Group C, because of the ever-changing rules and lobbying by competitors and manufacturers to CAMS. In hindsight, i think that Group A is probably the best thing that could have happened; firstly to have something new on the scene, and secondly to get the decision making and rule making - as far as the motor cars were concerned - out of CAMS's hands. Really, it was a welcome change."

Originally Posted by DangerousMomentsHere

Hey racer 69 that sounds very interesting, where did you read that?

During the commentary of one of the early 1983 ATCC races, it is mentioned by John Smailes that Johnson was investigating a Falcon turbo (based on the 4.1 six) to replace the troublesome XE V8 for Group C racing. Remember Johnson was involved with the Falcon 'Grand Prix Turbo' at the time.

As far as Group A goes, this is from the book 'Dick Johnson - The Real Story Of A Folk Hero';

"..Johnson had become involved with Ford Motorcraft in developing the new turbocharged Falcon EFI that will form the basis of his 1986 Group A car. He had to go overseas straight after the 1984 ATCC to sort out an interim Group A car for 1985, and that led to the purchase of two Mustangs, one a race-ready Zakspeed car that was earmarked for a second car at Bathurst."

Originally Posted by DangerousMomentsHere

Just as a side note, the GT-R wasnt all great. The Ford Sierra was faster in a straight line, the BMW's faster round corners. They Had 3 good goes at Bathurst. 1990- Lost to V8 Holden, 1991- Won fair and Square, 1992-It Rained and they still crashed.

The Sierra was faster in a straightline in 1992 when the GTR was knobbled, but in 1990 (particularly the early stages of the 1990 Tooheys 1000) and 1991 the GTR clearly had an advantage in straightline speed

As far as 1992 Bathurst goes, the Winfield GTR had led the race all day, and got its initial break on the field in dry conditions....

[DangerousMomentsHere]

Fascinating read racer69,

Never new about the the tricky dick GP-Turbo,

Interestingly enough you say "troublesome XE V8",
Gets me thinking and asking why at the time many more privateers drove the Holdens not the XD/E's was there a inherent flaw with them?

I Think ill politely continue the banter and say defiantly the GT-R had the Straightline speed in 1990 Bathurst yet brakes failed. 1991 you have to admit the (top running) Sierra's had found speed and were keeping pace on straights but not much else. 1992, GT-R was developed so was only Johnson keeping things honest in the Sierra and you have to say he held his own against all the GT-Rs running that day in the terrible conditions.

[Arney]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

Dick had to run a Ford, because he was definitely getting factory support? Because if he didn't, then he should've ran another make. It would been no big deal if Australia had run slightly different rules to European series, like NZ did. I suppose having international competitors at Bathurst would've made it difficult. I remember one time, as a kid, being annoyed that I hadn't seen any Sierras on the road. We all appreciate the car as motorsport fans. But deep down, I don't think it should've been here. Maybe in a Sports Sedan class, but not the ATCC. Do you/anyone have a pic of the GpA Falcon?

Try this page for a pic of the Anderson 'Group a' Falcon.
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...67601&page=158

[Henry]

Originally Posted by DangerousMomentsHere

Fascinating read racer69,

Never new about the the tricky dick GP-Turbo,

Interestingly enough you say "troublesome XE V8",
Gets me thinking and asking why at the time many more privateers drove the Holdens not the XD/E's was there a inherent flaw with them?

I Think ill politely continue the banter and say defiantly the GT-R had the Straightline speed in 1990 Bathurst yet brakes failed. 1991 you have to admit the (top running) Sierra's had found speed and were keeping pace on straights but not much else. 1992, GT-R was developed so was only Johnson keeping things honest in the Sierra and you have to say he held his own against all the GT-Rs running that day in the terrible conditions.

The Grand Prix turbo was a Jim Faneco project post-CDT. I can't remember who did the turbo work, but AIT and David Inall are two names that ring a bell. A facsimile of DJ's autograph on the flank of the Grand Prix XE was the sum total of his involvement.

Dick was involved in semi-independently engineering an HKS installation on an orange XE he used as the prototype... I believe that Ford Australia's own in-house program may have been run semi-concurrently along the same lines, but ultimately the DJR/Ford Australia turbo Falcon projects went on the shelf.

Dick's continued Ford involvement offered him the best chance of some form of manufacturer support - everybody else had works teams, and as Allan Moffat always maintained, without works support, you were wasting your time.

Turbocharging was a bit of a novelty at the time - remembering that
Datsun/Nissan had persevered with the Bluebird through that last of the Group C years, doing their best to ignore allegations that they fixed the turbos to the motor with velcro to aid the (frequent) changes required as they let go one after the other... but it took a couple of years for turbo power to completely shadow cubic inches...

The big dramas that people had with the XE was initially rear suspension related, and it took Johnson - who was arguably the best-resourced from a financial and engineering point of view (employing ex-Williams F1 man Wayne Eckersley AND George Shepheard in an ongoing battle to tame the coil-sprung Watts Link rear end) until half-way through 1984 to make the XE work half-well. Fred Gibson - who built the King George Tavern Falcons - said the XE was a dreadful car to try to engineer.

Given the amount of support that the HDT had historically given many privateers over the years - plus their propensity to build at least one new car each year and sell off an old one - meant that it was easier to purchase go-fast Holdens and parts than Fords. Most people didn't immediately recognise the significance of the XD's initial homologation advantage for Group C, and anyway, by then people felt that they had to have a good reason to consider running a Falcon, when a competitive Holden was easier and cheaper to build.

When Group A came around, as far as local options went, the Commodore was about all there was... and you could buy a race-ready car via HDT or Roadways... and later from Perkins Engineering... BMW's were another race-prepared option, thanks to their existence in Group A trim in Europe prior to our introduction to the formula in 1985... a couple of die-hard Fordsters opted for the Mustang, although only Johnson - thanks to a healthy budget - plumbed for race-ready cars (which was ultimately the only way to get a competitive Mustang)... there were a couple of Rover SD1's although they never went anywhere near the levels of speed and "sophistication" of the TWR cars... and of course Garry Wilmington surprised many by building an XJ-S...

It was an exciting time - the cars were exotic, if not all available through dealers in Australia. And while the RS500 Sierras turned it into a real arms race, there were many people who plumbed for chassis kits via Andy Rouse, or imported Wolf cars, or built their own. Few went to the lengths that Shell Ultra-Hi Racing did, enlisting German consultants via Bosch to give them the sort of access to the ECU programming that Rouse wouldn't, or Mo-Tec couldn't at that stage, introducing sophisticated active telemetry...

Then of course, along came the R32 GTR, which redefined the fundamentals once more... had Europe not lost interest in the early 90's, the arms race may have continued... Dick Johnson had imported an RS Escort with a view to running it in 1992-3 (had Mike Raymond not staged a revolt...) but by then they were looking to 2-litre reg's...

The Holdens? in 1985 they weren't ready, and suffered for it. 1986 treated them much better - in an ETCC that retained a naturally-aspirated flavour, they ran competitively, and in a number of cases, were only prevented from garnering very impressive results by a lack of local knowledge, and funds that evaporated when the Aussie dollar fell into the basement.

The VL retained a modicum of competitiveness, as proven with a win at Monza when the cheater cars were rubbed out, but chasing the Euro dream had been a costly exercise, and Bathurst 1987 resulted in an Antipodean antipathy for anything European... Dick Johnson basically took his car to the 1988 TT at Silverstone to do nothing more than rub their noses in his newfound speed...

HRT's strategy to ruthlessly run the Sierras hard between pace car periods - and to hope that the GTR failed (as it ultimately did) - netted a Bathurst win, but by 1991, even revving the 304 to 9,100rpm wasn't enough to run with the imports...

It was a fast, explosive, exciting time, with drama, a combative air, and ultimately it fizzled when killed by expense and single make/team domination.

It was an era that heralded the end of the owner/car preparer, although the team owner/driver would survive for nearly another decade before the era of the full-time driver and his all-consuming regimen of fitness and dedication meant that there was no room for any further distraction - like running your own team, or driving other categories.

Sure, if you think that not running Bathurst in 2:07 or better is slow, then they were slow; Group A started with 2:26's or so in 1984 when they ran as a secondary class, but by 1992, they were pretty bloody fast around the Big Hill, and a lot more capricious, vicious and hairy than the bewinged 5 litre cars that ran from 1993 onward. There was never a Group A outright car that could run flat into Caltex Chase, so it was a tippy-toe experience, although not quite as scary as the prospect of the car getting light on the old Conrod... an occurance that resulted in tragedy in 1986...

For those of us who remember it, it was probably more exciting that the current era... in the same way that the Older Units tell us all that you hadn't seen ANYTHING until you saw Ian Geoghegan, Allan Moffat, Bob Jane and Norm Beechey rough-housing in their American iron a generation before...

[venturi]

Excellent informative post Henry

[Swedish Brick]

Well said.

Originally Posted by Henry

Few went to the lengths that Shell Ultra-Hi Racing did, enlisting German consultants via Bosch to give them the sort of access to the ECU programming that Rouse wouldn't, or Mo-Tec couldn't at that stage, introducing sophisticated active telemetry...

I'm sure I read back in the day that Johnson also visited McLaren/Tag to learn about the ECU side of things.