Mini Challenge Crash at QLD Raceway - Spectator Safety

[NewsStalker]

Originally Posted by PVDA

As for the attack angle of the car into the fence you've only got to look at speedway, where vehicles like Sprintcars have near enough to head on collisions with catch fences as they get upended going into the corners, to know you can engineer a fence to stop almost anything.

Except that their mass is a helluva lot smaller than the cars we are talking about here...

[Axeman444]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

And think you will find not even in Australia. The problem is that nobody has managed to get a court ruling on it - the venues always manage to settle out of court usually with 'confidentiality clauses' as part of the settlement.

that would be when there is negligence on the part of the promotor/venue owner, liability is still restrictable if there is no negligence.

if Tetley has CAMS safety accreditation for the circuit then there is no case to answer

[NewsStalker]

I wasn't suggesting eith r way about negligence - besides, that would have to be proven in court, it isn;t something which can be dismissed simply by the promoter saying 'I wasn't negligent'.

The bottom line though is that, AFAICR, in general motor racing (remove drags from the equation) no one has actually gotten to court to prove one way or the other whether the court will dismiss an action based purely on the 'disclaimer' on tickets and entry to the circuit(s)

[Axeman444]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

I wasn't suggesting eith r way about negligence - besides, that would have to be proven in court, it isn;t something which can be dismissed simply by the promoter saying 'I wasn't negligent'.

The bottom line though is that, AFAICR, in general motor racing (remove drags from the equation) no one has actually gotten to court to prove one way or the other whether the court will dismiss an action based purely on the 'disclaimer' on tickets and entry to the circuit(s)

same as music concerts etc etc, no liability

[HSVDT]

According to what I've heard on the grapevine it appears Queensland Raceways days could well and truely be numbered with every possibility of the V8's not returning in 2011 and onwards due to the 2 severe accidents that occured over the weekend.

Saturday saw 2 spectators and Kain Magro (mini driver) all taken to hospital, however Sunday saw a female mini driver barrel roll her mini into a tyre bundle at high speed at turn 6 and was taken to hospital with several injuries.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by HSVDT

According to what I've heard on the grapevine it appears Queensland Raceways days could well and truely be numbered with every possibility of the V8's not returning in 2011 and onwards due to the 2 severe accidents that occured over the weekend.

If true that would be a ridiculous overreaction on V8SA part. A departure motivated by other factors aside from circuit safety.

[PVDA]

Highly unlikely the Mini problems would cause VE$A to stop going to QR.

More likely is the fact that the track promotor stands up to VE$A and their demands.

Besides if they walk away from QR where are the Queensland based teams going to test and lose their home track advantage.

[HSVDT]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

If true that would be a ridiculous overreaction on V8SA part. A departure motivated by other factors aside from circuit safety.

D.R.T, obviously you haven't heard of track upgrades, even TeamVodafone driver Craig Lowndes believes Queensland Raceway is long overdue for upgrades, including a resurfacing of the track.

“Do I think the track has deteriorated over the years that we have been here? Yes. Does it need an upgrade? Yes. Whether that is going to happen, I don’t know,” said Lowndes.

Craig Lowndes and 2/3rds of pit lane apparently share the akin thoughts about Queensland Raceway.

[fomoco]

Originally Posted by HSVDT

According to what I've heard on the grapevine it appears Queensland Raceways days could well and truely be numbered with every possibility of the V8's not returning in 2011 and onwards due to the 2 severe accidents that occured over the weekend.

Saturday saw 2 spectators and Kain Magro (mini driver) all taken to hospital, however Sunday saw a female mini driver barrel roll her mini into a tyre bundle at high speed at turn 6 and was taken to hospital with several injuries.

HI HSVDT, the grapevine must be out of touch.
Friday Pratice: Mini Challenge Car 19 left the track and contacted the wall at turn six
Saturday Race : Mini flipped on track , slid on its roof, dug in and barreled rolled across the gravel trap and over the spectator fence.
Sunday race: Mini left track at turn six,and slid into the wall and rolled onto it's roof.

From Fri: Nil Injuries
From Sat: Driver and two spectators taken to hospital. Driver and one spectator released, other spectator remained for further treatment.
From Sunday: Driver taken to hospital for checks, ok and returned to cicuit.

As for the V8's it has nothing to do with minor categorys. F/F, Mx5 heaps more still run at this track regulary. Yes it neeeds someTLC, but nothing to do with the mini crashes.

So in fact there was three Mini incidents. Two ran of the track and slid into the wall, on flipped on the track and barrel rolled into the spectator area.

better check the grape vine again.

cheers

[fomoco]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

3 cars went into the crowd over the same weekend? Someone in the newsrooms obviously didn;t want this informaiton to get out.

So why wasn't racing banned 3-4 years ago when 2 cars upended themselves on the same corner on the same day?

Oh hang on - 4 people sneezed at the event - it's a major flu outbreak!

what three cars went into the crowd??
two cars upended themselves on the smae day?????

[HSVDT]

Originally Posted by fomoco

Friday Pratice: Mini Challenge Car 19 left the track and contacted the wall at turn six
Saturday Race : Mini flipped on track , slid on its roof, dug in and barreled rolled across the gravel trap and over the spectator fence.
Sunday race: Mini left track at turn six,and slid into the wall and rolled onto it's roof.

fomoco that makes it all the worse 3 crashes?

Originally Posted by fomoco

As for the V8's it has nothing to do with minor categorys. F/F, Mx5 heaps more still run at this track regulary. Yes it neeeds someTLC, but nothing to do with the mini crashes.

fomoco you best check your notes again,

Who hosted this years Event at QR? VESA
Does VESA fall under CAMS.? Yes
Do minor categories come under VESA due to hosting the event.? Yes
Does minor categories and VESA fall under CAMS.? Yes

CAMS haven't started there own investigation into the mini crashes yet but they will.

[ForumNick]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

3 cars went into the crowd over the same weekend? Someone in the newsrooms obviously didn;t want this informaiton to get out.

So why wasn't racing banned 3-4 years ago when 2 cars upended themselves on the same corner on the same day?

Oh hang on - 4 people sneezed at the event - it's a major flu outbreak!

Originally Posted by fomoco

what three cars went into the crowd??
two cars upended themselves on the smae day?????

I'm sure NewsStalker was being " ironic / sarcastic " in his post

[fomoco]

Originally Posted by HSVDT

fomoco that makes it all the worse 3 crashes?

fomoco you best check your notes again,

Who hosted this years Event at QR? VESA
Does VESA fall under CAMS.? Yes
Do minor categories come under VESA due to hosting the event.? Yes
Does minor categories and VESA fall under CAMS.? Yes

CAMS haven't started there own investigation into the mini crashes yet but they will.

valid points, but there was three crashes, most only speak of two, yes minor cats under cams, but same type of cars race there as well. As do at other tracks. So maybe CAMS and AASA should share info on any related incidents. I agree with your points.

[retro]

Originally Posted by HSVDT

D.R.T, obviously you haven't heard of track upgrades, even TeamVodafone driver Craig Lowndes believes Queensland Raceway is long overdue for upgrades, including a resurfacing of the track.

“Do I think the track has deteriorated over the years that we have been here? Yes. Does it need an upgrade? Yes. Whether that is going to happen, I don’t know,” said Lowndes.

Craig Lowndes and 2/3rds of pit lane apparently share the akin thoughts about Queensland Raceway.

link

Queensland Raceway facilities need tune-up

* Craig Lowndes
* From: The Courier-Mail
* April 29, 2010 12:00AM

There's also a big cloud hanging over the future of the event at the Ipswich circuit.

At the start of the year it was ruled out because of a lack of facilities, then it was back on again, at least for this year, with V8 Supercars running the event and bringing in a lot of temporary facilities like a big grandstand.

In the short term, I have to say that it is vital that we continue to come here for the sake of the Queensland-based teams that use it as their test circuit.

But in the long term, the circuit must be upgraded with facilities for the fans such as better shade, seating and catering. It's not the most technical track to drive, but at least it gives the spectators a view of the whole circuit.

As a race driver, I would like to see the circuit resurfaced and lengthened, preferably with more than just two left-hand corners.

It would be nice to see them extend it at turn two and go straight ahead out over the embankment and then rejoin the track about the middle of the existing back straight. It's a very basic circuit and there are really only two or maybe three places you can overtake.

I'd be open to any ideas to lengthen the circuit and make it more interesting.

[bludvl_x19]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Plus Chris Wootton at the Grand Prix, plus that one at Indy where the driver had to be cut from the wreck, plus the crash earlier in the weekend that wrecked a car.

I find it odd that there are sooo many of them being wrecked. Inexperience in any race car, let alone Minis may also be a contributor!

Don't forget the one at Bathurst that the driver was taken out through the roof after they peeled it back.

Did any of the cars involved in the rollover touch the drive wheels together? I think they may have done an open wheeler style mount, if it started in the same way that the Bathurst crash did. The plastic wheel arches do nothing except increase BMW's bank account when the drivers need to buy new ones, as the bubblegum holding them on came loose...

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

Woolley - the point was made earlier though that all catch fences are primarily designed to stop a racing car when hit at an oblique angle.

I'm not convinced that's the case. The sort of fence they have around Silverstone for instance ought to stop a Mini head on - I've seen a Lister GT car land on it at fairly significant speed and altitude and it dealt with that OK. Trouble is, it also stops photography from behind it and spoils the view.

[TWRv12]

It wasn't a freak accident, it happens a couple of times, every year or so, across the world. The almost freak thing about the accident is the spinning by the authorities claiming it never happen before. If you believe otherwise, do more research...

The biggest problem with the circuit is the attitude of Queensland Raceways chief executive John Tetley

said safety was not a problem at the track, situated west of Brisbane.

"I am very disappointed in Dick's comments - to say it is unsafe is complete bulls--t to be honest," he told AAP.

The Queensland Raceways chief executive needs to be seen and heard doing the right thing (whether he likes it or not), not slagging off people with a valid opinion.

After The Rat's two crashes at Bathurst, its hard to have faith in the ability of CAMs to approve and licence a circuit.

The way the mini was launched into the crowd, it probably would have cleared basic catch fencing.

If circuits want to have low fences around the track, its plain dumb to put spectator areas in the obviously more dangerous parts of a track.

On the tv footage, the run off area looked a bit short, should it be longer?

Roof flaps - could also help. Never understood why FIA series cars don't use them to help with airborne crashes.

After the PI turn one crash, the FIA high speed barriers and similar tyre wall constructions were discussed on here.

There are also things like tyre wall inserts which absorb more impact which were not in use.

The tyre wall tyres, didn't look like they were not banded together, and there also didn't look like there was a convey belt mounted on the front of them.

Surely there should be a tyre wall barrier (or FIA high speed barrier) in front of the main barrier? The mini might have cleared one or both, but it wouldn't have travelled so far. The point is maybe you can slow the car before it hits the main barrier. Possibly might help to have high barrier at the most dangerous areas of the track.

The last thing that needs to happen is for CAMs to bury its head in the sand.

[TWRv12]

Originally Posted by Woolley

I'm not convinced that's the case. The sort of fence they have around Silverstone for instance ought to stop a Mini head on - I've seen a Lister GT car land on it at fairly significant speed and altitude and it dealt with that OK. Trouble is, it also stops photography from behind it and spoils the view.

Never stopped Mr Zonta in 2000. Although the barriers are probably better now.

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by TWRv12

The last thing that needs to happen is for CAMs to bury its head in the sand.

They'd have to take thier head out of the sand first so they can put it back in again though

[NewsStalker]

Originally Posted by TWRv12

It wasn't a freak accident, it happens a couple of times, every year or so, across the world. The almost freak thing about the accident is the spinning by the authorities claiming it never happen before. If you believe otherwise, do more research...

A 'couple of times a year'? How many total accidents were there 'this year'? Out of how many racing miles? And how many racing cars? Percentage? Probably less than 1/1000th of the total accidents/cars/races.

The biggest problem with the circuit is the attitude of Queensland Raceways chief executive John Tetley

The Queensland Raceways chief executive needs to be seen and heard doing the right thing (whether he likes it or not), not slagging off people with a valid opinion.

And Tetley (or anyone for that matter) is going to come out and say 'I agree - our circuit is not safe'. Lawyers dream that would be. Of course he is going to refute any suggestion the track is unsafe - especially when he has a track permit and the stewards have agreed with him and given permission for the event to start. Or do we now condemn the people who have the final say on letting a track be used for racing - the stewards?

Roof flaps - could also help. Never understood why FIA series cars don't use them to help with airborne crashes.

Because the overall incidence of them is far too small when put into context of the number of cars racing and number of racing crashes that happen throughout the year. If you take this line of thought, why weren't ALL cars stopped from racing down lengthy straights when the Mercedes became airborne at Le Mans? After all - surely that is a design flaw in both the car AND the track (the car should have enough aerodynamics to stay on the track and the track shouldn't be built in such a way that a car can attain take off speed - oh hang on - a plane can become airborne at just 60 km/h - we'd better slow ALL racing cars down to ensure they can never become airborne!)

There are also things like tyre wall inserts which absorb more impact which were not in use.

Except even this wouldn't have helped would it? (Unless the wall was another 8-10 metres higher!

The tyre wall tyres, didn't look like they were not banded together, and there also didn't look like there was a convey belt mounted on the front of them.

PVDA or someone similar can correct this - many tyre bundles in Aus are banded together internally not necessarily on the outside.

Surely there should be a tyre wall barrier (or FIA high speed barrier) in front of the main barrier? The mini might have cleared one or both, but it wouldn't have travelled so far. The point is maybe you can slow the car before it hits the main barrier. Possibly might help to have high barrier at the most dangerous areas of the track.

All barriers are designed with an 'expected' hit rate (bad wording I know - don't know the technical term for it). If the design shows that just about every car would go off the track and into a particular barrier then sure something else would be done (like not design it that way). But if the expected rate is, say, 1 in a 1000 (and, lets face facts here - what happened is NOT a common occurrence. Or is this the FIRST time Mini's have ever raced at QLD raceway???) then common sense suggests they will build as much protection in as is a) reasonably foreseeable and b) cost effective.

Think about your storm water drains - they are usually designed for the once in a hundred years rain storm. Unfortunately no one really knows what this amounts to - so when the deluge really hits, the media label it the Once in a Hundred (or Thousand) year storm - and the drains can't take it. Would you suggest that all drains then be ripped up and upgraded to take account of the storm that, in all likelihood, will either not happen again for a hundred or more yearss or possibly even never? And I guess you would be prepared to pay higher rates/taxes if they did this? Same applies to the race tracks.

Its all about playing the odds, whether we like it or not. And sometime, just sometime, the odds go the way you don't like them and couldn't predict.

[nomad_n]

You will the type of fencing used at QLD raceway is used at Nz tracks - Timaru for instance.

But Minis tend to roll at at a drop of a hat.... And normally don't stop till they hit something hard I.e. a concrete wall but to see one jump over the wall and the fance was something I've never seen in all of my years as an offical.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by HSVDT

D.R.T, obviously you haven't heard of track upgrades, even TeamVodafone driver Craig Lowndes believes Queensland Raceway is long overdue for upgrades, including a resurfacing of the track.

“Do I think the track has deteriorated over the years that we have been here? Yes. Does it need an upgrade? Yes. Whether that is going to happen, I don’t know,” said Lowndes.

Craig Lowndes and 2/3rds of pit lane apparently share the akin thoughts about Queensland Raceway.

That great HSVDT - as you have showed above the V8's threatening not to come back has nothing to do with what happened on Saturday but everything to do with wanting track extensions, bigger grandstands, bigger sanction fees etc.

Two separate issues however it seems V8SA will attempt to leverage the unfortunate events of last Saturday to push its own case of holding QR to ransom.

[TWRv12]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

A 'couple of times a year'? How many total accidents were there 'this year'? Out of how many racing miles? And how many racing cars? Percentage? Probably less than 1/1000th of the total accidents/cars/races.

Remember the Porsche at Pukekohe, GP2 at Magny Cours, the Porsche at Thruxton, Zonta at Silverstone, Ginetta at Oulton Park, the flying LMP1's last year (at least one cleared a barrier), Webber at LeMans, F3000 at Donington, the BIG rallycross crash, there are others...

Its not so rare, that its shouldn't be a bigger factor in circuit safety design.

[STEALTHY]

How do you suspect we can overcome flying cars clearing the barriers? 100 feet high fences? A roof?

This is motorsport, theres always a risk.

[NewsStalker]

Originally Posted by TWRv12

Remember the Porsche at Pukekohe, GP2 at Magny Cours, the Porsche at Thruxton, Zonta at Silverstone, Ginetta at Oulton Park, the flying LMP1's last year (at least one cleared a barrier), Webber at LeMans, F3000 at Donington, the BIG rallycross crash, there are others...

Its not so rare, that its shouldn't be a bigger factor in circuit safety design.

Like I said - they are NOT common occurrences in the overall number of races and cars racing. They get remembered simply because they AREN'T the norm.

BTW - with that - care to put dates (just a year will do) on them all for us so we can see that these 'common occurrences' have all happened in the recent past (let's define recent as the last 12 months....)