HTP, FIA, EDA? Papers, what are they

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by morninggents

Interesting conumdrum this question of original car with racing history but no homologation versus the fully FIA papered 'period' saloon racer built from an old road going shed that only ever took Fred and Doris on shopping trips and the odd run to the coast. I doubt it will ever be satisfactorily resolved.

As an interesting aside - how many Rochdales were ever built, Zef and how many variations were there, engine makes and sizes, etc.

There is some contradiction within the idea of recreating races for old racing cars and eliminating ones that were there at the time while allowing in new builds, but I understand the authorities dilemma as explained by Jeremy.

The Rochdale owners club give the following production numbers:

Years Model Survive Made (Estimated)
1952-54 Mark II 2 6
1952-54 Alloy 2 10
1954-61 MkVI 6 150
1955-61 C-Type 2 30
1955-61 F-Type 3 50
1955-59 ST 7 100
1957-6 GT 80 1350
1959-61 Riviera 4 50
1960-67 Olympic
Phase I 100 250
1963-73 Olympic
Phase II 65 150

The early cars (including the GT) were just bodyshells for the owner to fit to his choice of chassis - particularly the Ford Popular for the ST & GT.

I'm not sure how accurate the survival figures are because I've only found one F-type which is now on my Elva. One look at the body explains why the survival rate is so low, they were the early days of fibreglass after all!

As for the different variations of Olympics the club says:
Most production Phase I Olympics had the Riley 1.5 engine, though Minor, MGA, Ford 100E and 105E were also fitted and one left the factory with a Coventry Climax racing engine.
Phase II was based on the Ford Cortina 1500GT engine and Triumph derived front suspension replaced the Minor/Riley 1.5 of the Phase I.

[morninggents]

How many of the Olympics (Phases I and II) were made as production cars by Rochdale and how many sold as kits.

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by morninggents

How many of the Olympics (Phases I and II) were made as production cars by Rochdale and how many sold as kits.

I think nearly all of them were sold as kits.
Purchase tax was presumably still an issue in those days so kits would have been considerably cheaper than built cars.

There's a fair bit of info. on the Rochdale club website:
http://www.rochdale-owners-club.co.uk/

[morninggents]

I think therein lies the problem with the lack of homologation of cars like the Rochdale Olympic as the kit buyers would have made many variations to the kit to get to the finished product, therefore, no 'standard' available to homologate.

Presumably Rochdale, as a company in the late 50s and early 60s had no interest in homologation anyway if they were not planning on a works race team.

Little did they know then the problems they would give Zef almost 50 years later!

[zefarelly]

Peter, I couldn't give a flying farquar about FIA papers for the Rochdale. Its all a bit odd, |I have a Cortina which is a Willment replica(-ish) they raced internationally, and competitively, albeit briefly, and its got papers, and its welcome anywhere . . . . . I've got a genuinelly original car with interesting (if not exotic) hostory which may or may not even get an MOT! its just as usable, and even in period rather than modern trim it might be class competitive, unlike the COrtina now

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by morninggents

I think therein lies the problem with the lack of homologation of cars like the Rochdale Olympic as the kit buyers would have made many variations to the kit to get to the finished product, therefore, no 'standard' available to homologate.

Presumably Rochdale, as a company in the late 50s and early 60s had no interest in homologation anyway if they were not planning on a works race team.

Little did they know then the problems they would give Zef almost 50 years later!

That's the basis of the problem, at the time you didn't have to have a homologated car, it just had to meet the category requirements.
As with all racing cars if someone found something that made theirs go faster everyone else would copy it, so any advantage would be short lived.

Of course there is a lot of know-how that has been gained since these cars were built, the problem that is avoided by not accepting them is to establish what would have been available at the time.

But then again there's a collection of very historic Lotus Cortinas for sale that would apparently be useless for historic racing since they are all in period specification, which rather suggests that the use of homolgated specifications doesn't work either!

[zefarelly]

even some of the older prepared historic racers are useless now compared to the latest levels of prep, I know of 2 genuine LC's which used to be midfield Top Hat racers, they're both MOT'd and used for fun, away from circuits.

[p261brm]

Having spent the last month sourcing and looking at cars on behalf of a friend I have drawn the following conclusion, and that leads to confusion on again to confucious; he say, as far as I am now concerned the only piece of paper worth it's salt is the receipt for the money, the rest is intrigue, falsehoods and in some cases down right lies. If there is a continuous competition history with all changes of ownership and upgrades no problem but when cars are laid up. converted, rebuilt and so on the only use for HTP's are a nail in the small room they serve only to cause problems and further expense.

[Al Weyman]

I personal feel all this sort if stuff just puts historic racing out of many peoples reach. I mean some of the prices being asked for old cars with these papers is simply staggering, have a look through the ads in the back of Octane.

[john ruston]

So people must pay them!
Nobody is going to sell a car for less tan they can get for it.

[Al Weyman]

Dont you think though that sooner or later the whole thing will go up in ypur face, I can understand certain old cars being worth fortunes but Minis and Escorts and ramp up LC's?

[john ruston]

Certainly will,but they should be bought as toys not this investment rubbish.
It was nonsence in 89 and is now .

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by john ruston

So people must pay them!
Nobody is going to sell a car for less tan they can get for it.

never.

Whats distorted it slightly, particularly in the case of, relatively speaking, 'ordinary' cars, is the amount of time and budget invested in recreating period and/or ex works specification, and the quality of restoration, creation and preparation involved in doing that well. Additionally making it competitive, which is furthermore involved can be, shall we say 'resource hungry'

[Al Weyman]

If I was new to the sport I would go for a later disipline, a £35k A35 seems crazy to me and would probably buy 2 or 3 competitive M3's. I was talking to someone in the know the other day and he said to me you would get £25k for you old chevy, I said no way, so he replied you wouldnt sell it anyway, I said get yer cheque book out and try me! :-)

[john ruston]

But how much does it cost to build an A35 racer if done professionally?

800 hrs at 40 Quid per hour,plus new bits and donor car.How much is that and VAT eats away 15/17.5 %.Problem is when you buy one and then need to rebuild it because its not quite as good as you thought.

[zefarelly]

If it took 800 hours to bolt together a load of Spridget bits I'd be looking for some more efficient mechanics! It is simple to tot up 30k+to build a decent tin top though.

[Al Weyman]

I think I will give up this print business and start looking for old cars, seems much more profitable. If you are spending 800 hours on a job like that you must be taking on hell of a lot of tea breaks or someone is pulling yer plonker. My friend who does have a fully equiped sprayshop rebuilt his Avenger race car in about 40 or 50 hours from a 30 odd year old base model shell to a good looking race car.

[DaveGT6]

It's taken me over 650hrs to build my Grantura from it arriving in the garage to HTP inspection. That's with a full strip down to bare chassis/body and complete rebuild, wiring etc but excludes time running around sourcing parts, specialist's time building engine etc. I reckon to do a proper build on anything you are into 100s of hours irrespective of how rare/valuable/exotic the car is.

[zefarelly]

I reckoned on 500 including running around when I built the Cortina, shell prep not included, that can vary wildly, obviously.

I don't think 800 hours is an excessive quote by JR in any way for a but an A35 is about as simple as it gets and all the parts are off the peg pretty much, I can tot up £35k however, not that I'd waste that much on whats essentially a fugly pigeon holed spridget!

[Al Weyman]

My point is why prepare these cars to such a concours standard it dont make them go any better and they break just as easy and they don't knock any money off the entry fee because they are pretty and I am talking more the mundane end of the market not exotica and rare sports cars. I have heard of £65k being spent on an A40, why? I put someone on to one on ebay and he bought it for £800 had been rallied, needed a tidy up and a new engine but it had cage and suspension and was all there, the guy is in the bodywork game and it looks great now, well as great as one of those particularly ugly cars can look (man I hated them when I was a kid, dunno why I just did I think its that square bland boxy shape, sorry A40 lovers). My old Camaro looks OK from 20 feet away, get close its not so pretty but looks good on the TV and in photos so whats the problem, I could spend hours concoursing it but I have better things to do and it wont go any better as that side of things are in order especially as i am one mistake away (mine or someone elses) from wrecking it at any time on the track.

BTW I am not talking about the guys who are self preparers and do this themselves as like me you wouldnt have the clock running working out hours spent as its a labour of love and a hobby which is what it should be surely.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

My point is why prepare these cars to such a concours standard it dont make them go any better and they break just as easy and they don't knock any money off the entry fee because they are pretty

Al, everyone has their own ideas on preparation standards! To me, half the satisfaction of this historic racing game is getting to the circuit with car looking as good as possible. To achieve this goal a high standard of initial build is a big help! I'm sure others will have different opinions.

Having just filed all this seasons race info away, I can see that out of 16 races this year have failed to finish 2- both from fuel starvation in a new built car which is now sorted with a re-designed fuel pick up. Next year I want 100% record!

From experience, you are much more likely to get a race with Equipe GTS, for instance, (especially if the entry is oversubscribed) with a car presented to a high standard. I am sure the same goes for some other series. And I doubt I would have got the chance to do the Silverstone Classic in the Gilbern if it wasn't always presented to the best of my ability.

So I will endeavour to keep preparing to (as near as possible) concours standard!

[terence]

Exactly how it should be done Mike.Obviously,cost's do come into play but the better looking cars usually do get the advantage on entry list's.We all have our own targets though.
800 hrs at £40 per hour? My last contract with you know who was at 42 p.hr,thats four years ago and prices have gone up since then.Mind you,some there were very,very good at spending other peoples money!

[john ruston]

Who was it Terry and assume they are now not in business.

[esper]

Gladly enough everything was perfect in the past. the past of honnest sixty motorracing. We had manufactureres big or small, who didnt want to rule history on bending homologations and numbers of cars produced. Ferrari
, Aston Martin, Porsche . Ford, those honnest players of the past real racing

[Al Weyman]

Mike as I have not the slightest bit of interest in racing in any of the events you mentioned I will continue to race my clean but not immaculate car where i feel comfortable and where I can afford, if they don't want me out with them quite frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.