2012 Dakar Rally

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by kober

Did Miller say this after the infamous Tuesday's river crossing?

In fact, in the same message he refers to the river crossing incident.

One last thing on Peter and the bike. All the top drivers have encounters with the bikes everyday... If we got penalized for every incident there would be penalties everyday!! The bike guy was in wrong place at wrong time, sorry for him but it happens at every Dakar like that. Everyone gets called into the principals office for bike brushes, RG has had his share also. Normally you pay for the damage and move on. A sincere apology is mandatory. Peter is coolest cat out there willing to help everyone.

You have to remember that Peterhansel won the Dakar 6 times on a bike. He respects the bikers a lot.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by AndyS

Didn't look good what Petterhansel did. I suspect he will get a penalty, they chucked one of the Kamaz truck drivers out of the event for something similar.

I see that someone compared the Peterhansel incident with the Kamaz incident.

From what I have read, the Kamaz story is something completely different. Nikolaev drove into the 410 car (Di Palma). He went to organization and claimed that he helped Di Palma with the repairs and he got back the time that he lost. However, the next day Di Palma filled a complaint because Nikolaev did not help at all but used the time to replace his flat tyre. That is why the organisation kicked him out.

source: http://www.trucksfromholland.nl/inde...age=16&id=1111

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by kober

Great to see him at the front. If you've never heard about Holowczyc, he's three times Polish Rally Champion, 1997 European Rally Champion, finished top ten in WRC rallies thrice, won Silk Way Rally last year, and has been starting in the Dakar since 2005 - fifth in '09 (Overdrive's Navara), fifth in '11 (X-raid's X3). He might not have the experience of Peterhansel, but he's quick enough to actually win it. Either this year or never

I like Holowczyc a lot. Sadly today he suffered some bad luck.

Polish-Belgian pairing Krzysztof Holowczyc / Jean-Marc Fortin, however, weren’t that lucky. At first, they had to stop due to a broken power steering, thus losing valuable time. Later they gut stuck and when another competitor tried to tow them out, the tow rope broke, hit the radiator and destroyed it. So, they had to wait for the X-raid truck to have the radiator repaired.

I suspect that the broken power steering might the consequence of his roll yesterday. If that is the case, the X-Raid crew screwed up big time by not replacing that component

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Up until today Gordon was driving very patiently. I thought that he had a good chance at winning the rally. However, today Gordon returned to his old habit of overaggressively driving. He wanted to overtake Petterhansel on a narrow road, drove in a ditch and broke two tyres and some suspension parts. In the Eurosport interview he was complaining that Petterhansel ignored the sentinel button.

On another forum Mark Miller, former VW factory driver, made a nice comment about the sentinel system

I'm way behind on video coverage, but that sounds like the same inpatient harebrained overanxious stuff Robby Gordon has been doing for years. He's made himself into a great underachiever in American motorsport because of that.

[rallycrossnl]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

You have to remember that Peterhansel won the Dakar 6 times on a bike. He respects the bikers a lot.

May I say that I think Monsieur Peterhansel has a, in my humble opinion, a very odd way to show his respect towards dirtbikedrivers by kissing their spine with a 2 ton car.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

It seems that Gordon has been cheating with the restrictor. He has been disqualified, but he can continue the race under appeal. Within two months the appeal will be judged by the FIA/FFSA.

In http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9poY-BbBKq0 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SofeKy62cxc Gordon sort of explains what the problem is. The air inflation system is connected to the airbox behind the restrictor because it needs a vacuum. The technical inspectors suspect that this enables them to blow more air into the engine without going through the air restrictor. They did a simple stall test (covering the hole of the air restrictor) and that work twice.

Gordon says that this proves that "it is not sucking enough air to make a difference". I am not sure that I agree with him. A very small amount of air might not be enough to keep the engine running on idle, but it could give a bit of extra horsepower.

He also says "It does not matter what the rule book says. They approved it, so it is legal."

[gwyllion]

Okay, I found a bit more information on the system in this post on another forum.

Just saw an interview with Robby on VS where he better explained the intake/tire inflation system in question.

Per Robby, there is a bleed-off line from the tires that bleeds into the engine post the restrictor. The application of this bleed line is to more rapidly bleed down the tires through the use of engine vacuum.

Robby re-iterates that this system has been in place for the past 5-years and has been deemed legal each year.

That sounds like a clever system. The tyres can be deflated almost instantly because the air is sucked from the tyres into the engine.

I can understand why they deemed the system illegal. The whole point of an air restrictor is that the only air going in the engine passes through the restrictor. In case of the Hummer, the restrictor can be bypassed. By constantly pumping air into the tyres and at the same time deflating them, more air can be fed into the engine. I am not saying that the Hummer system can do that. Moreover, I doubt that it would yield a big performance gain because we are talking about a very small amount of additional air.

In the end it is pretty suspicious that they never complained about the inflation/deflation system and only know interpret it as an air restrictor bypass.

[kober]

Originally Posted by rallycrossnl

May I say that I think Monsieur Peterhansel has a, in my humble opinion, a very odd way to show his respect towards dirtbikedrivers by kissing their spine with a 2 ton car.

I totally agree with you. That "kiss" could have ended in much worse way than hitting a biker between his shoulder blades with a mirror, and dumping a bike in a river. It might be really nasty if he had over calculated that move.

I hope that Roma will surprise everybody and win it - he seems to be genuinely a nice guy (I don't recall any excesses by him in the previous years). Especially that after Holowczyc and the Hummers got slapped by a bad luck, it doesn't seem impossible. More likely though, X-raid will ask Roma to follow Peterhansel until the finish and help him in case of any troubles (give away spare tires, engine or the whole car ).

And it would be great to see de Villiers on the rostrum - his drive in the Imperial Toyota is impressive. Moreover the car is 2013 compliant, so the next year they should be a real threat to X-raid's fleet. Btw. any ideas what exactly are the changes to T1 regulation? Production engine?

Do you guys think that Gordon will return next year?

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by kober

I hope that Roma will surprise everybody and win it - he seems to be genuinely a nice guy (I don't recall any excesses by him in the previous years). Especially that after Holowczyc and the Hummers got slapped by a bad luck, it doesn't seem impossible. More likely though, X-raid will ask Roma to follow Peterhansel until the finish and help him in case of any troubles (give away spare tires, engine or the whole car ).

I think that it is too early for such team orders. There are still two long stages ahead; the one of today will be interesting because it is said to feature Mauritanian like erg dunes. In the X-Raid camp that still have a lot of other Minis to provide fast assistance and carry the spare parts.

Originally Posted by kober

And it would be great to see de Villiers on the rostrum - his drive in the Imperial Toyota is impressive. Moreover the car is 2013 compliant, so the next year they should be a real threat to X-raid's fleet. Btw. any ideas what exactly are the changes to T1 regulation? Production engine?

The rules are available on the FIA website: http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public...5%20(2012).pdf
For Dakar there are some minor changes (e.g., restrictor size): http://www.dakar.com/dakar/2012/docs...LAIS_FINAL.pdf

Yes, it is said that the purpose built race engines (e.g., BMW/Mini) will be banned. I don't see that in FIA rules. They only say that free design diesel engines are still allowed but with a smaller restrictor than production based diesel engines.

Originally Posted by kober

Do you guys think that Gordon will return next year?

Yes, why not? The big question is whether there will be some rule changes to make the Hummer (or whatever new body work Gordon puts on his buggy) slower.

[AndyS]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

From what I have read, the Kamaz story is something completely different. Nikolaev drove into the 410 car (Di Palma). He went to organization and claimed that he helped Di Palma with the repairs and he got back the time that he lost. However, the next day Di Palma filled a complaint because Nikolaev did not help at all but used the time to replace his flat tyre. That is why the organisation kicked him out.

source: http://www.trucksfromholland.nl/inde...age=16&id=1111

That's what I meant when I said he was slightly liberal with the truth when questioned about the matter.

[gwyllion]

After winning stage 12 dominantly, Robby Gordon gave an interview in which he was very ****ed at the organisation and the Mini drivers ("The inspectors can kiss my ass", "I am going to win every special and embarrass them from now on", "Minis are for girls", "I kick their ass", ...). He also said that he would put a video on youtube explaining the air inflation system. I think it is not yet online because I did not find it.

[kober]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Yes, it is said that the purpose built race engines (e.g., BMW/Mini) will be banned. I don't see that in FIA rules. They only say that free design diesel engines are still allowed but with a smaller restrictor than production based diesel engines.

So, starting with 2013, there will be only three options for a T1 engine:
1. normally aspirated, production based petrol,
2. production derived turbo diesel, with 38 mm restrictor, or
3. free design turbo diesel, max. 3000 cc, 35 mm restrictor.
Surely, they'll receive larger restrictors for the Dakar, to compete with the OP monsters

What exactly do FIA mean by "2012 GT homologation regulations" in the rules' portion regarding the production based engines? Won't the "specific technical form" be required for GT-derived power plants?

"a. Either derive from the engine of a car able to be homologated in Group N, GT (2012 GT homologation regulations) or T2, with modifications allowed by Article 284.
A specific technical form, based on a series production engine that can be homologated in Group N or T2, must be produced with the technical passport of the vehicle."

Originally Posted by kober

Do you guys think that Gordon will return next year?

Yes, he will. Most likely to kick even more "donkeys" What a redneck

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by kober

So, starting with 2013, there will be only three options for a T1 engine:
1. normally aspirated, production based petrol,
2. production derived turbo diesel, with 38 mm restrictor, or
3. free design turbo diesel, max. 3000 cc, 35 mm restrictor.

That is correct.

The changes that can be made to production diesel engines are listed in article 285 (= T1 rules). A number of changes are allowed: machining on cilinder head, con rods and pistons, new exhaust manifold, ...

For production petrol engines the allowed changes are listed in article 284 (= T2 rules). In essence the ignition, motor management and exhaust can be changed, but all the other components must stay stock.

The Toyota 4.6 V8 engine of De Villiers already confirms with these rules. For this year, they have been granted a slighty bigger restrictor in order to be competitive.

Originally Posted by kober

Surely, they'll receive larger restrictors for the Dakar, to compete with the OP monsters

I also think that the SCORE cars will get some extra restriction. Al Attiyah and Gordon showed that the Hummer has too many advantages over the T1 cars: bigger restrictor, more suspension travel, bigger tyres, in-car air inflation/deflation system, wider car, longer wheel base, ... The only disadvantage is the lack of 4WD.

[I Rosputnik]

Are the trucks running? I've heard nothing about them.

[FIRE]

Of course. 1-2 for Team de Rooy.

[skells22]

just one more stage left for this year dakar then we wait until next year

[kober]

And it's over. Congrats to the winners:

Bikes:
1. DESPRES (FRA) - KTM
2. COMA (ESP) - KTM
3. RODRIGUES (PRT) - YAMAHA

Cars - Overall:
1. PETERHANSEL (FRA)/ COTTRET (FRA) - X-RAID MINI (1st T1)
2. ROMA (ESP)/ PÉRIN (FRA) - X-RAID MINI (2nd T1)
3. DE VILLIERS (ZAF) / VON ZITZEWITZ (DEU) - IMPERIAL TOYOTA (3rd T1)

Cars - T2:
1. FOJ (ESP)/ CERVANTES (ESP) - TOYOTA LAND CRUISER
2. MITSUHASHI (JPN)/ GUEHENNEC (FRA) - TOYOTA LAND CRUISER
3. ALHERAIZ (UAE)/ ALKENDI (UAE) - TOYOTA LAND CRUISER

Trucks - T4:
1. DE ROOY (NLD)/ RODEWALD (NLD)/ COLSOUL (BEL) - IVECO
2. STACEY (NLD)/ VAN GOOR (NLD)/ DER KINDEREN (NLD) - IVECO
3. ARDAVICHUS (KAZ)/ KUZMICH (RUS)/ TURLUBAEV (KAZ) - KAMAZ

[Ferrari333SP]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I'm way behind on video coverage, but that sounds like the same inpatient harebrained overanxious stuff Robby Gordon has been doing for years. He's made himself into a great underachiever in American motorsport because of that.

If you want to catch up on all the coverage from the Dakar, just check out http://www.planetrobby.com , where people uploaded pretty much all of Eurosport's daily coverage.


I also don't think RG was overanxious at all; there's been a TON of discussion on the race-dezert.com forum on what transpired during the race, and Peterhansel was pretty much a dick for not moving over. RG was losing a good amount of time being stuck behind Peterhansel, and took the risk(a completely valid one) of trying to pass him.


Here's the now-famous Eurosport interview RG gave after his Stage 12 win:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RH6WB-nPh38

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Ferrari333SP

I also don't think RG was overanxious at all; there's been a TON of discussion on the race-dezert.com forum on what transpired during the race, and Peterhansel was pretty much a dick for not moving over. RG was losing a good amount of time being stuck behind Peterhansel, and took the risk(a completely valid one) of trying to pass him.

Peterhansel started 3 minutes behind Gordon and he had been able to overtake Gordon. That means that Peterhansel had effectively gained more than 3 minutes at that point. So you expect Peterhansel to pull over on a narrow road to give away his advantage?

You have to remember that the Sentinel system is primarily designed as a safety device to warn the slower competitor.

29P1 SENTINEL FUNCTION OF GPS FUNCTION OF GPS
1) With a view to making overtaking safer, the Sentinel function of the GPS (a device that signals to a competitor that he can be overtaken) is compulsory for all categories.

source: http://www.dakar.com/dakar/2012/docs...LAIS_FINAL.pdf

If you read the race-dezert.com forum, you probably saw the remark of Mark Miller I mentioned earlier:

I am as big a RG supporter as any but the story is that Robby is the worst offender over the years on not pulling over for sentinel.
...
My experience with Peter is he is the best sportsman out there. Not only that he has won this so many times that he loves the competition and is encouraging of the battle, He is the ONLY driver who has always pulled over for me after repeated sentinels.

You say that Gordon toke "a completely valid risk". From what I have read, He tried to outbrake Peterhansel before a 90 degree turn which was marked in the road book as very dangerous (with 2 exclamation marks). To me that sounds like a do-or-die move instead of a well calculated risk.

Maybe the comment of the mechanic in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roNQQFdYePs#t=1m44 best describes the situtation: "his mind was not in the game and it was stuck on yesterday whether or not the ASO was going to penalize us." I think that big problem is that Gordon is doing too much in the team: driving the car, helping with the engineering of the car, managing the team, helping the mechanics, talking to the press, ... I read somewhere that Gordon only went to sleep at 3:30 the night that the inspectors found the issue with tyre inflation system. In the (semi-)professional teams the drivers only have to drive the car and go to bed early

[Nick6]

Originally Posted by kober

So, starting with 2013, there will be only three options for a T1 engine:
1. normally aspirated, production based petrol,
2. production derived turbo diesel, with 38 mm restrictor, or
3. free design turbo diesel, max. 3000 cc, 35 mm restrictor.
Surely, they'll receive larger restrictors for the Dakar, to compete with the OP monsters

What exactly do FIA mean by "2012 GT homologation regulations" in the rules' portion regarding the production based engines? Won't the "specific technical form" be required for GT-derived power plants?

"a. Either derive from the engine of a car able to be homologated in Group N, GT (2012 GT homologation regulations) or T2, with modifications allowed by Article 284.
A specific technical form, based on a series production engine that can be homologated in Group N or T2, must be produced with the technical passport of the vehicle."

Yes, he will. Most likely to kick even more "donkeys" What a redneck

In other words the T1 cars are going to be slower. Is there some good reason why these cars will be slowed down?

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Nick6

In other words the T1 cars are going to be slower. Is there some good reason why these cars will be slowed down?

Production engines will make the cars cheaper and make the sport more attractive for privateers. De Villiers finished a bit more than 1 hour down on Peterhansel, so the speed difference is not that big.

[kober]

After Peugot Sport pulled out of the WEC/LM24, the chances for Citroen Racing to take a shoot at winning the Dakar (again) are close to zero. Shame - I was a fan of ZX during the Lartigue vs Pajeros era
I wouldn't be surprised to see Al-Attiyah in an Imperial Toyota, along De Villiers, next year, even though he has a three-year contract with Citroen WRT.

[FIRE]

Al-Attiyah raced 2 (?) Dakars for XRaid. Did there happen something between him and XRaid? I mean after VW left XRaid is the best team.

[gwyllion]

I don't think so. He left X-Raid because he realized that he had a better chance at winning the Dakar with VW. The X-Raid machines have always been very fast, but in the past reliability was always the issue.

I read somewhere that he contacted X-Raid first but they could only give him a X3 because all the Minis were already taken. Only then he went to Gordon.

[FIRE]

Maybe that is just the reason. Of course he planned to race with a (private) VW but than VW canceled their full rally raid project. As a result Al-Attiyah left VW completely.

We will see next year what he drives.
For me he and Gordon were the most entertaining drivers of Dakar 2012.