2013 v8st

[Southern Man]

Originally Posted by socram

Interesting - if that is true. I understood the circuits generally charged a fixed hireage fee for the track, either for a day or a weeekend and the hirer pays extra for such luxuries as a PA system; radios and lunches for marshals; ambo; breakdown/recovery etc. If the promoter wants extra temporary stands, extra staff, or other luxuries such as security etc, then the promoter pays.
Running a one day meeting at Hampton Downs but with no frills, costs about $12,000 a day, so paying out $100,000 for a weekend seems a bit over the top.

The $80 - $100,000 is in the ball park that North Island circuits were charging TMC the past couple of seasons, Different circuits have differing structures, some supply everything bar the actual promotion of the event for a fee with the promotor taking the gate, others have worked on a shared costs and shared profit ???? off the gate.


Circuits are a very expensive thing to own and operate and with live television having a serious effect on paying crowd numbers through the gate one has to look at their income stream very closely and it looks like Ruapuna may have worked out which is now best for them

[promax]

Originally Posted by Chappelli

Understand it's going to be REALLY full on for the teams, but as a spectator I think it's a BRILLIANT idea!!!
Finally someone is looking at 'value' in terms of how much bang for buck spectators get in terms of time invested... Spending an entire Sunday at the track to see the main attraction on track twice ain't good value (no matter how cheap it is)....

does this mean i only need a ticket for saturday well that's something positive

[Chappelli]

Originally Posted by Southern Man

Circuits are a very expensive thing to own and operate and with live television having a serious effect on paying crowd numbers through the gate one has to look at their income stream very closely and it looks like Ruapuna may have worked out which is now best for them

That'll be why Bathurst crowds are rubbish, why the stands are empty at All Black games and why crowds at Western Springs have died since 'The Dirt' came to TV....

You can blame TV all day long, the reality is the show isn't good enough.... Which is also probably why we're unlikely to see any sporting codes looking to grow poaching the mega minds behind TMC.

[flyingduck]

Well $100,000 seems a lot to me and sounds like it was to much for ST as they are off the calendar.

I hate the live tv argument as I believe it brings more people in as they watch other rounds and then head to the event for the real sights and sounds of the event. Most people if they get tickets to a game prefer that overp watching on TV.

[TV3]

Originally Posted by Southern Man

The $80 - $100,000 is in the ball park that North Island circuits were charging TMC the past couple of seasons, Different circuits have differing structures, some supply everything bar the actual promotion of the event for a fee with the promotor taking the gate, others have worked on a shared costs and shared profit ???? off the gate.


Circuits are a very expensive thing to own and operate and with live television having a serious effect on paying crowd numbers through the gate one has to look at their income stream very closely and it looks like Ruapuna may have worked out which is now best for them

Southern Man, while I respect your views I need to alter your perception that Live TV has a negative effect on paying crowd numbers, If the show is good enough people will attend, it's as simple as that. It is an easy option to blame TV for falling crowds but it reality it is not the case. Look at any Premier Sport and Live TV is an integral part of the business, marketing and sponsorship package. . From a Sponsors perspective it is far more cost effective to reach an audience of 250,000 with an afternoon of Supertourers on CRC Motorsport than 15,000 at the track... the figures speak for themselves. I hope I have managed to persuade you Live TV is not all bad and that we are here to support and promote V8 Supertourers for the fans, teams & sponsors. Personally, you can't beat trackside on a good day, but if you can't be there TV is the next best thing.

Regards
Nigel Carpenter
CRC Motorsport
TV3

[mountainstar]

We've had this same debate in the USA, especially in regards to local blackouts of live coverage of football or basketball games if the game doesn't sell out.

Successful franchises though don't have this problem.

I believe that live TV might have some effect on local crowds at the track, but I think the problem/issue is bigger than that. If you are not filling the track/facility, it is your pricing, promotion, amenities at the track or the show itself.

I've talked about it until I've been blue in the face over the past 10 years, but having been to tracks around the world and seeing what works and what doesn't work, many tracks down under just do not "get it" when it comes to amenities, fan comfort, fan experience and overall presentation of the facility. Much of what I have seen is on par with a 1950's level of amenities at 2012 prices.

So of course many people are going to sit at home on their couch instead of shelling out a couple of hundred bucks to bring the family to a track with mud or wooden bench seating, toilet blocks right out of a Russian gulag and terrible food. It's a no brainer.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I've talked about it until I've been blue in the face over the past 10 years, but having been to tracks around the world and seeing what works and what doesn't work, many tracks down under just do not "get it" when it comes to amenities, fan comfort, fan experience and overall presentation of the facility. Much of what I have seen is on par with a 1950's level of amenities at 2012 prices.

From my experiences the Australian circuits, without being first class the amenities are on par with many of the international circuits I have attended (these dont include Tilke rings).

[flyingduck]

I don't know about that drt free wifi good concourses of food and booze is what I found in the states

[socram]

Whether it is live on TV or not would not affect my decision to attend. I'll happily watch most local four wheeled motorsport on TV because I enjoy cars. What TV usually gives us is a view or two that the average spectator cannot access as in the main, spectator viewing is abysmal at many tracks, and in that, I include overseas circuits too. The worst in my recent experience being Monte Carlo.

Penning or coralling spectators into tightly defined areas is off putting as spending a weekend in a specific stand or seat is not my idea of good spectating as I want to view from different vantage points and take photographs.

When it comes to Super Tourers, I am more interested in the overall package than the feature grids, as I am not now, nor never have been, a supporter of a narrow range of makes of cars at a race meeting.

Like most classic and historic followers, I crave the variety those groups offer and am far more interested in seeing the various cars, than the actual racing. I would almost go as far as to say that I know I would get more enjoyment on practice day at Goodwood or even Hampton Downs for the Hulme festival, that I ever would on race day at any ST meeting. One of the other reasons is that I can also see every car and not just a focus on the front three identical cars which is the one failing of most TV coverage.

Whether we like it or not, all race enthusiasts have their favourites and I am guessing that many ardent ST or NZV8 enthusiasts, might well be bored out of their brains at a good classic meeting. (Also summed up by a generational gap as epitomised by my stepson, who used to sell motorcycle tyres, who would drool over the latest Kawasaki or Honda but would consider a Manx Norton, KSS Velocette or a Vincent as "old dungers".)

Equally, those who cheer on single seaters are not too enamoured of tin tops or sports cars. Probably the only group that can put on guaranteed entertainment regardless of what is on the track is speedway, as a night at the Springs has genuine atmosphere, although even that has now been watered down a bit too much.

I wish the Super tourers well and I will happily watch it on TV, even if I have to record it and watch later. I'll be ecstatic if Jonny Reid, Murph or Foggy takes out the series but sorry Mark, I won't be paying to watch, as the concept just doesn't excite me enough.

[on_to_it]

Originally Posted by socram

Whether it is live on TV or not would not affect my decision to attend. I'll happily watch most local four wheeled motorsport on TV because I enjoy cars.

Now, that for me is an interesting perspective. Personally, I too am a car lover but I go to a race track to watch car racing. And I'm not too fussed if it is Formula Fords, Swift Sport Cup cars, BMW MINI's or V8ST's. The skill is in where the car is placed on the track, a bit like a chess match. It's how you lure your opponent into a trap, and when you shut them down. Racecraft and experience matched with a cool head, that's good racing.

I don't give a toss about badges and DNA, for me that is red-neck BS. But that's just my opinion too!

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by on_to_it

a bit like a chess match. It's how you lure your opponent into a trap, and when you shut them down. Racecraft and experience matched with a cool head, that's good racing.

I don't give a toss about badges and DNA, for me that is red-neck BS...

Agree 100%

The tagline for ST is 'Series of Champions'. To watch these guys race is akin to a tennis open.

There is already a good many classic meetings jammed with every make and model you could imagine. I enjoy the pits immensely but when they head out on track it is usually a case of 'beautiful cars driven badly'. The ST format is 'irrelevant cars driven spectactularly'
Seeing the kids (big and small) lining up at the signing sessions gives me hope for the future. Excitment, glamour, heros. Like I say, a tennis open.

[socram]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

I enjoy the pits immensely but when they head out on track it is usually a case of 'beautiful cars driven badly'.

LOL! Tell that to Andy Booth, Paul Radisich, Angus Fogg or classic specialists such as Bruce Manon, Neil Tolich or Mark Parsons or those with a long and successful history in the sport such as Bryce Platt, Racing Ray Williams and Kenny Smith!

Strange that many classic and historic drivers look at the modern series and shudder and see much of it as dodgem car racing. Panel damage appears to be the norm rather than the exception but when our own grids have up to 40 cars in a handicap race, meaning dozens of overtaking manoeuvres often three abreast approaching corners, then I would suggest that the driving standards are in fact pretty good considering the wide range of driver experience. Recent history before Super Tourers hit the track was of a load of grids where they struggled to get a dozen cars on track and this has not done NZ motorsport any good at all.

Thankfully, ST has lifted the game considerably as without it, our so called top tier was a joke - and not a very funny one either.

Your comments are usually very intelligent Icarus, but in this instance, we must beg to differ.

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by socram

... but in this instance, we must beg to differ.

Yes we will.
I was only expressing a personal view and reinforcing that my motivation for going to the track is similar to on_to_it's

I am not maligning classic racing in any way. Its popularity speaks volumes for its appeal and it obviously brings a great deal of pleasure to a good many people.

My main point is (and I'm sure you will agree) ST inhabits another sphere.
It is what it is and the crowds indicate that it appeals to many folks and brings them a great deal of pleasure.

I think your definition of driving standards is a little limited.
Look at the volume of traffic on the Auckland motorway. Divide the daily total by the number of accidents and the stats would look pretty good compared to 120 entries at a race meeting.
I wouldn't call Auckland motorway driving standards particularly good, would you?

[socram]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

My main point is (and I'm sure you will agree) ST inhabits another sphere.

Yes, I do agree!

I think your definition of driving standards is a little limited.
Look at the volume of traffic on the Auckland motorway. Divide the daily total by the number of accidents and the stats would look pretty good compared to 120 entries at a race meeting.

I was making the observation that many of us don't really rate the driving standards of the so called top tier drivers who seem unable to bring the car home in one piece without it being held together with tape, even though there are so few cars out of the track. It was in relation to your comment about nice cars being driven badly, an inference that the driving standards in classics was poor.

Some drivers can extract a lot more out of their cars than others (or are prepared to push them a lot harder) and there is definitely a wide spread of talent. One only has to look at Foggy, a very able ST driver but who still drives the classics hard, whereas his dad, a very able driver in his own right, will not push the same car as hard now as he probably did 25 years ago, but that does not mean he is driving badly, just with more respect for not only his own machine, but also with respect to those around him, who may have cars that are not as easily repairable as the Mini.

I just don't believe the driving standards at the top level are often that good as I grew up in an era when biff and bash had no place on a race track. Some may like this more gladatorial aspect of racing but I'd rather see my favourite finish second, alongside another driver, than push the other driver off. Maybe I just belong in a different era, but I make no apologies for that!

[promax]

so what's the deal with this new "Peer Scrutineering”

aren't the cars meant to be identical?

[flyingduck]

Originally Posted by promax

so what's the deal with this new "Peer Scrutineering”

aren't the cars meant to be identical?

Tell us more promax sounds interesting to me and since the cars are meant to be identical so peer review is the best way to keep the cars the same. I beat if Tour de France teams were meant to drug test each other we would see less cheating as they would always be up with the play.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by flyingduck

Tell us more promax sounds interesting to me and since the cars are meant to be identical so peer review is the best way to keep the cars the same. I beat if Tour de France teams were meant to drug test each other we would see less cheating as they would always be up with the play.

FD,

You can read all about our unique Peer Scrutineering on our Facebook page, just like promax did this morning.

Peer Scrutineering, is designed to ensure that all the teams are satisfied that all the cars are identical save for cosmetic allowances etc. ie. suspension bolts in the right places, shock droop, minimum rear ride heights etc.

Mark Petch.

[flyingduck]

Thanks Mark im not much of a facebooker but this should end some of the moaning between teams.

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by socram

Some drivers can extract a lot more out of their cars than others (or are prepared to push them a lot harder) and there is definitely a wide spread of talent. One only has to look at Foggy, a very able ST driver but who still drives the classics hard, whereas his dad, a very able driver in his own right, will not push the same car as hard now as he probably did 25 years ago, but that does not mean he is driving badly, just with more respect for not only his own machine, but also with respect to those around him, who may have cars that are not as easily repairable as the Mini.

Perhaps we need to clarify what is ment by driving 'well'
I am quite capable of going to a race meeting, circulating briskly, passing cleanly, positioning my car so as to make passing difficult, accepting when another driver has oursmarted me and preparing to reattack. I make allowances for others lack of situational awareness, learn who swings out wide and dives down without a second look. I'm sure I'd fit in fine at one of your meetings.
The only problem is that I'm 6 seconds a lap off what the car is capable of with a fast driver.
I don't view myself as a 'good' driver. I wouldn't pay to watch the likes of me.

Originally Posted by socram

I just don't believe the driving standards at the top level are often that good as I grew up in an era when biff and bash had no place on a race track. Some may like this more gladatorial aspect of racing but I'd rather see my favourite finish second, alongside another driver, than push the other driver off. Maybe I just belong in a different era, but I make no apologies for that!

Its certainly a fine line. A clumsy lunge with the other driver in the kitty litter or wall isn't what anyone wants to see. Subtle unloading of the car to unsettle and create an opportunity for the attacking driver is fair play.
As soon as they are past, the boot is on the other foot.
In that respect it isn't dissimilar to drafting.

Have a good close look at a ST and you'll see that much of the construction is tolerant of a bit of 'leaning'

Much of the contact of the top level in saloons is a result of the 'one move' driving standard rule. The lead driver is able to drive around on the pole line and back the feild up simply because they have track position.

The 'racing line' rule that Ross Thurston applied to V8ST post Rd2 made for some super racing. Much like the 'good old days'. Passing and repassing.

[HProject]

Here's a copy/paste of the peer-scrutineering post for those not living on Facebook:

HAMPTON DOWNS SNIPPETS:

Hampton Downs will also see the introduction of the long talked about Saturday morning “Peer Scrutineering” where 3 teams’ nominated representatives will inspect up to 7 other teams’ cars for technical compliance alongside one of own official Scrutineer's.

Teams must have their cars on raised air-jacks [with safeties in place] ready for Scrutineering. No work may be carried out on any cars, unless under exceptional circumstance, which must be first approved by Chief Scrutineer, Mark Sheehan.

Official Scrutineering will commence at 10:00 and finish at 11:00.

SATURDAY: Practice will not commence until 13:30 to 14:30 and from 15:30 to 16:30.

V8ST-only Hot Laps will commence at 17:15 pm until 18:00 hours.

SUNDAY:
Qualifying: 20 minute qualifying session will start at 10:05

Race one: 15 laps will start at 11:25

Race two: 20 laps will start at 13:45

Race three: 30 laps will start at 16:00

With Central Muscle Cars, UDC V8 Utes, V8 Challenge car, XtremeSport, Honda cup, and Suzuki Swifts, there is also a huge days racing on Saturday as well as Sundays V8ST qualifying and racing, interspersed by the support class's Sunday races.

WOW this is going to be one big weekend racing.

[flyingduck]

So a few questions how are the 3 teams picked and how are the 7 teams picked. Would it be good for these to remain for the after racing checks?

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by flyingduck

So a few questions how are the 3 teams picked and how are the 7 teams picked. Would it be good for these to remain for the after racing checks?

FD,

The teams will be picked by rotation over the Series, and the Chief Scrutineer, will allocate, which 7 cars each of the three team members will assist in checking, obviously not their own team's car or cars!

Mark Petch.

[JamesK]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

FD,

The teams will be picked by rotation over the Series, and the Chief Scrutineer, will allocate, which 7 cars each of the three team members will assist in checking, obviously not their own team's car or cars!

Mark Petch.

Well for 1 hour all cars will be legit, what measures are in place to cover the balance of the weekend ?

[Caterhamf1]

Originally Posted by JamesK

Well for 1 hour all cars will be legit, what measures are in place to cover the balance of the weekend ?

Honesty, Sportsmanship....

[promax]

Originally Posted by Caterhamf1

Honesty, Sportsmanship....

are you sure that's not the reason why 'Peer Scrutineering' was brought in?