HTP, FIA, EDA? Papers, what are they

[DaveGT6]

Horses for courses Al. Nothing wrong with a presentable but workmanlike racecar. I'd like to think that my last car fell into that category. Looked reasonably good and performed well enough. Personally I think that that it is great to see an immaculately prepared car that is highly competitive. Given that this post is supposed to be about HTP etc. I believe that there is an expectation from competitors, organisers and spectators that the cars involved in the arena of FiA historic events are prepared to a certain standard. Fully understand why you may not want to get involved in that but Mike's points about acceptability are correct (in my opinion).

[DaveGT6]

....Oh and as to what are HTP papers which I believe was the first question - mine arrived in the post this morning so I'm over the moon - I've joined the bottomless money pit club!

[zefarelly]

we've always been of the opinion that a clean well prepared car is a safer car, if its not covered in **** you can see potential problems before they happen. leaks, cracks, loose fasteners etc are visible. It also makes it far more pleasurable to work on as well as look at.

BoT . . .Al, do the CTCRC have a vehicle identity form or anything of the sort?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by DaveGT6

....Oh and as to what are HTP papers which I believe was the first question - mine arrived in the post this morning so I'm over the moon - I've joined the bottomless money pit club!

Congratulations- All that for a photocopied document and little metallic (non historic) bar code sticker!

Talking of costs, have been reading up a manufacturer's manual from the late 70s which states that "homologation forms are issued by the RAC..... At the time of writing these cost £3.50 each"

[Al Weyman]

So what we are saying then if I was to present a car for this HTP paperwork if you could not eat your dinner of the underside of the car and it didnt have flawless unmarked bodywork it wouldnt be granted. Personally I think thats nonscense one of the quickest Mk 1 Capris and Mk 3 Capris I have seen I would describe externally as sheds but try to catch them! I am not talking about racing a wreck here just a car that has had repairs so the door gaps and bodylines and paintwork etc may not be perfect (although always clean), may just be toshed out in satin black inside, not that pretty but functional and you cannot eat yer dinner off the floor pan.

No nothing like that required Zef. BTW according to the latest club newsletter it appears I am no longer PHTC rep but Celia Stevens is so maybe you had better ask her.

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Congratulations- All that for a photocopied document and little metallic (non historic) bar code sticker!

Talking of costs, have been reading up a manufacturer's manual from the late 70s which states that "homologation forms are issued by the RAC..... At the time of writing these cost £3.50 each"

They were photocopies of the original manufacturers homolgation forms-they now cost £25 ;packets of 20 Gold Leaf were 3/10 now what -about 6 quid

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hall

They were photocopies of the original manufacturers homolgation forms-they now cost £25 ;packets of 20 Gold Leaf were 3/10 now what -about 6 quid

Jeremy, they are now £46 (for lapsed UK vehicles) and still photocopies of originals....... (albeit with a new cover!)

Fortunately I don't smoke

[allenbrown]

£3.50 in "the late 1970s" is equivalent to £27.40 in today's money so they are actually cheaper today. Sounds like a good deal to me.

A packet of 20 went up to 40p in the 1977 budget Jeremy, shillings and pence having gone the way of the Dodo on 15 February 1971.

Sorry to inject some factual information into this thread - I hope I haven't diluted the quality of the ranting too much. Please carry on.

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

So what we are saying then if I was to present a car for this HTP paperwork if you could not eat your dinner of the underside of the car and it didnt have flawless unmarked bodywork it wouldnt be granted. Personally I think thats nonscense one of the quickest Mk 1 Capris and Mk 3 Capris I have seen I would describe externally as sheds but try to catch them! I am not talking about racing a wreck here just a car that has had repairs so the door gaps and bodylines and paintwork etc may not be perfect (although always clean), may just be toshed out in satin black inside, not that pretty but functional and you cannot eat yer dinner off the floor pan.

No nothing like that required Zef. BTW according to the latest club newsletter it appears I am no longer PHTC rep but Celia Stevens is so maybe you had better ask her.

Satin Black is good enough for Alan MAnn, cleanliness doesn't cost Al, its just good housekeeping. My cars far from concours, its pretty much original . . . I just try and present it otherwise!!!

The reason I mentioned something like the HSCC have (but don't really use?) is it surely would help scrutineers, organisers and ultimately benefit owners/entrants if they ever moved their cars on.

It might even help someone somewhere with their attitude to honesty!

My thinking is that for non homologated cars,or non App K prepared cars (anywhere, not just CTCRC) that if you kept a simple build spec document it could be presented with the car and would help simplify/justify any eligibility issues. it wouldn't cost much to set up, if anything, just participation of owners.

It would also benefit the car by being presentable to organisers and thereby be considered as a worthy entrant to other races even if it hasn't got a fancy hologram barcode sticker.

I don't know whats done with/for pre war and 50's stuff, there must be something in place?

[Al Weyman]

We did it when I ran ModProds and it worked well, even had a space for scruts comments for amendments before the next race to be signed off. I have suggested similar as I have several other things like a cc checker, weighing car with driver in an effort to help the more chunky amoungst us etc. but didnt seem much interest.

[DaveGT6]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

So what we are saying then if I was to present a car for this HTP paperwork if you could not eat your dinner of the underside of the car and it didnt have flawless unmarked bodywork it wouldnt be granted.

Al,

I don't think that is the case. The HTP is based on the specification of the car being compliant with the Homologation form not how good your paintwork is. Didn't notice a tick box for depth of shine!

On the matter of vehicle papers the CSCC introduced these a couple of years ago. It seems to be a requirement when we compete in some of the continental events. It allowed us to run non-FiA cars in amongst FiA cars at some Nurburgring and Spa events which had not been done before. It also seems to keep the continental scrutineers happy too.

[Al Weyman]

I believe that there is an expectation from competitors, organisers and spectators that the cars involved in the arena of FiA historic events are prepared to a certain standard.

It ws in response to this quote Dave. Look I like my car to look reasonably clean and sharp and I think it looks OK for a working race car but it pales against some I see out there. But if we both go off hard they will end up worth the same, i.e. sod all! However if and when I put her up for sale don't worry a couple of weekends work and and a spray gun and she will look a million dollars! Did I ever tell you I once sold cars for a living? ;-)

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by DaveGT6

On the matter of vehicle papers the CSCC introduced these a couple of years ago. It seems to be a requirement when we compete in some of the continental events. It allowed us to run non-FiA cars in amongst FiA cars at some Nurburgring and Spa events which had not been done before. It also seems to keep the continental scrutineers happy too.

THats exactly the right thing to be doing, there must be more non homologarted cars than homologated, thereofre a recognised sysytem like this would enable genuine period vehicles which where not homologated to race with those that where.

Whilst we have a split of club & International events now, as then, there are many cars which get used for both.

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

£3.50 in "the late 1970s" is equivalent to £27.40 in today's money so they are actually cheaper today. Sounds like a good deal to me.

A packet of 20 went up to 40p in the 1977 budget Jeremy, shillings and pence having gone the way of the Dodo on 15 February 1971.

Sorry to inject some factual information into this thread - I hope I haven't diluted the quality of the ranting too much. Please carry on.

What goes around comes around Allen, and in the middle of a postal strike then, Bob Jackson the 'man' and more important The Golden Lion closed in Horton in Ribblesdale, grown men seen to weep No more 'Brass Cat'

[Al Weyman]

Somethings like printed material have not risen at the same rate of inflation (I should know) so the comparison with inflation is not that relevant.

[zefarelly]

don't be such a killjoy, they where just reminiscing

spangle anyone?

[Al Weyman]

Well in 1974 odd a shop set up around the corner from my garage that sold the first Microwave ovens and if I remember they were absurdly expensive (hundreds), now I bought one the other week for just 40 quid with a grill facility as well!

[p261brm]

Excellent stuff Al and a pint were 10d in't club, better stop otherwise will be OT again.

[Sparton]

Well I bought the ex 'WRECK RESCUE' Elva 100 Formula Junior earlier this year, with the 'correct' 950 block, iron crank 1000cc engine WITH HTTP papers, yet Duncan R says even though it is a GENUINE Elva, as it doesn't have a chassis plate it will NEVER be invited to Goodwood nor Monaco! Having raced with FJ this year, other competitors' have told me that they have EXACTLY THE SAME CHASSIS NUMBERS as other competitors and they (all) get invites to those races!

I sold the supposedly ex Ronnie Peterson '69 Tecno a few months ago, having finished the restoration with David Gathercole's help, plus winning the class at HSCC Mallory this year and I understand that the new owner has an entry to Monaco next year even though the car has NO chassis identity but he did manage to get HTTP Papers recently.

I now have purchased a '70 Royale RP6 Group 6 car from Chris Bailey (only 9 produced, all as ROLLING CHASSIS), that used in period, so I am informed, 1300 Alfa Twin Cams, 1300 BDH/BDA's, 1600 Twin Cam fords/Alfa 1600 Twin Cams, and in the 2x chassis that went to South America & raced in the 500km of Interlagos, Chevrolet engines. The only one that has CURRENT HTTP Papers is with a 1600 Twin Cam ford, however this week when talking to MSA re getting papers for mine, have been told NO I can't have twin cam 1600 nor 1300 BDA(preferred choice) even though I have 99.9% proof of an RP6 racing with a 1300BDA at an International race in Germany in 1971! So I guess it's the face that has to fit-not the car. My first win was in 1967.

[allenbrown]

At the anger of sounding like a stuck record ...

An HTP (Historic Technical Passport) does not certify the history of the car, it merely certifies that it is in the correct specification. A car can be built yesterday and still receive an HTP. Conversely a car can be entirely genuine with a fully documented history and won't get a HTP if it has the wrong engine.

A race organiser can take any car they want; that is to do with the organiser, not the HTP system and not the MSA.

The document that certifies that a car is genuine, has always existed and is the car it claims to be is a Heritage Certificate, not a HTP.

[Sparton]

Thank you Allen for clarifying the Papers issue; with all the other problems I had forgotten their purpose!

[terence]

Getting back to the thread title: They are to be largely ignored,anything you do not understand about building such a vehicle,just go ahead and build it anyway,it can always be made to comply at a later date.

[Sparton]

Terence, problem isn't that simple! I'm told 1 RP6 had 1300 BDA then 1600 twin cam & hill climbed at possibly international events, so until I can get definite proof of the engines used internationally(only 9 RP6's built & sold as rolling chassis) I can't build an engine to get HTTP which Masters require for their series.

[terence]

Sorry Sparton,that was said just a little TIC.

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

At the anger of sounding like a stuck record ...
The document that certifies that a car is genuine, has always existed and is the car it claims to be is a Heritage Certificate, not a HTP.

Mmmmm and many of them become an hilarious situation comedy when the cars they represent are researched closely.