Street Justice: Edwards' Style (merged)

[FBJim]

Originally Posted by Matt

So I guess we should all feel the same way if someone gets sppun at California then, and nothing happens.

If it's a clearly malicious action, yes.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by FBJim

The action is what counts, not the consequences.

If so, where was the outcry, the rage, about Montoya three months ago? He did the exact same thing, spinning out a lead lap car on purpose while he himself was well out of contention several laps down.

Oh that's right, almost nowhere, because it resulted in a much less damaging incident. Hell, there were even users on this very forum proclaiming that Montoya spinning Stewart out on purpose was the only good thing about the 2009 season finale.

So I'd say the consequences do play a huge part and again, if the #12 had merely slammed the wall and not gone airborne this thread wouldn't exist.

[FBJim]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

If so, where was outcry, the rage, about Montoya three months ago? He did the exact same thing, spinning out a lead lap car while he himself was well out of contention several laps down.

Oh that's right, almost nowhere, because it resulted in a much less damaging incident. Hell, there were even users on this very forum proclaiming that Montoya spinning Stewart out on purpose was the only good thing about the 2009 season finale.

So I'd say the consequences do play a huge part and again, if the #12 had merely slammed the wall and not gone airborne this thread wouldn't have existed.

While true, that doesn't mean the reaction was correct at all. I detest intentional contact in all of its forms, I hate it when I'm at the local short track, I hate it when I see it in european touring car racing, and I hate it in NASCAR. Montoya should have been penalized heavily, as should have David Gilliland for intentionally wrecking Montoya at Texas in '08.

[dyewat808]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

If so, where was the outcry, the rage, about Montoya three months ago? He did the exact same thing, spinning out a lead lap car on purpose while he himself was well out of contention several laps down.

Oh that's right, almost nowhere, because it resulted in a much less damaging incident. Hell, there were even users on this very forum proclaiming that Montoya spinning Stewart out on purpose was the only good thing about the 2009 season finale.

So I'd say the consequences do play a huge part and again, if the #12 had merely slammed the wall and not gone airborne this thread wouldn't exist.

If the 12 hadn't gone airborne this thread wouldn't exist.
Yes

Does that make the reaction any more right?
No.

Montoyas action was just as bad - we think he should've been punished. But, like you say, because it was less damaging, it wasn't.

I'd like to see Montoya punished EXACTLY the same as Edwards.

Just like FBJim said - its the actions, not the consequences, that REALLY matter. Of course the consequences matter in terms of publicity and even punishment. But morally, they don't.

[Knowlesy]

They came down on Carl like a ton of feathers!

[cthib10]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

Mike Helton just said Carl Edwards has been put on probation for three races. No additional penalties were mentioned.

Questions from the press now.

Yea Edwards! Feel the wrath of Nascar! I bet you will never do anything like that again (in atelast the next 3 races).

[broadrun96]

The question now is will he be spun in the next three rounds by anyone hoping for revenge without consequence? Seems like spinning and flipping a car will only get you 3 race probation so why not get revenge now while you know he can't hit you for at least 2 more races? Personally think any driver that can be shown to have hit to spin another car should have the team sat for 5 races. Bumping on the backstretch and getting a little to aggressive with the bump should be exempt, sometimes sh_t happens. When you can see the intent, or in Edwards' case his hands moving, then Helton should skip right past probation. The root of the problem is the thought that bumping and banging are part of NASCAR history so all contact should be, sorry but ask any sponsor if they want to be seen as sponsoring the dirty car I'm sure the answer would be no. It was fine when tobacco was still in racing and could work with the 'outlaw driver' but now that a majority of sponsors are cross-country businesses selling to families that may have to change. Just look at Robby Gordon's sponsorship problems and tell me some of it isn't because NASCAR coverage branded him a hothead, talented but could be a little impulsive.

I'll admit I've hoped for JPM to do well in Cup, mainly to shut up most of the rednecks around here that call him that crazy-driving no-talent Mexican but if he spins another car (didn't see the finale spin or highlights) he should be parked or have points docked to start this season. But then I've always thought the one move to defend rule should be enforced at all times. Pick your line off the corner and stick with it, if you block great, if you miss and get passed well push harder next corner.

[ensign14]

So, having an engine about a millionth of a cc over the limit means your career is over and your crew chief disabled.

Trying to kill an opponent means...nothing.

Brilliant.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by ensign14

Trying to kill an opponent means...nothing.

So you seriously believe Carl Edwards was trying to kill Brad Keselowski? Really?

Look, I think what Carl Edwards did was a bull**** move as well, but c'mon.. trying to kill? That's like saying Ayrton Senna should have been charged with attempted murder for deliberately taking out Alain Prost at Suzuka in 1990.

[JHamilton]

At least he's not on meth.

[manwell]

So Chad Knaus gets fined $100,000 and suspended for 6 weeks for modifying a fender which technically still fit NASCARS templates.

http://nascar.about.com/od/rulesands...48infineon.htm

But Carl Edwards goes back out on the track a hundred and something laps down and deliberately rams another car into the wall and all he gets is probation?
Oh please!!!....... I think there is something serously wrong here.

[DanicaFan]

No matter what the penalty was that NASCAR handed down, they would get scrutinized for it. If it had been much harsher, people would of said it was too much, now that its fairly light, people say not hard enough. NASCAR could not win in this decision no matter what.

The thing that gets me is, had the car not went airborn, nothing else would of been said or done by NASCAR or the fans and all this discussion would not have happened.

I dont like Brad K. Im glad he was fine but maybe he will show some respect for the better and more seasoned drivers out there.

[MJ_N_09]

So, is DF actually defending Nascar and Edwards????? There's no reason that his actions should be defended. Period.

Then again, Edwards does drive for the 2nd biggest team in cup, and is one of the most swooned-over-by-girls drivers. Also, he indirectly gave Nascar a massive headline that they can manipulate in an attempt to get new fans in. Add 1+1+1 together and..............did you all honestly think that Edwards would lose points?

What is nascar trying to compete against? Open Wheel, ball sports, or just simply WWE/TNA/UFC?

[enemy-ace]

probation???
what a joke!

[manwell]

Originally Posted by DanicaFan

The thing that gets me is, had the car not went airborn, nothing else would of been said or done by NASCAR or the fans and all this discussion would not have happened.

I dont like Brad K. Im glad he was fine but maybe he will show some respect for the better and more seasoned drivers out there.

The thing that gets me is, why would this discussion not have happened if the car didnt get airborne?
Sure, rubbing and bumping is a part of racing, but deliberately hitting another driver to put them out of the race. What other racing series in the world allows that?

I watch only a little bit of NASCAR, generally to see how Marcos Ambrose is going. But how did Keselowski not show respect?
The earlier incident that triggered this showed Edwards moving down the track and cutting in front of Keselowski who had nowhere to go as he was on the yellow line and they ended up touching, putting Edwards up into the wall. Edwards then admitted that after watching the replay it wasnt as bad as he thought and it wasnt Keselowski's fault.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by MJ_N_09

So, is DF actually defending Nascar and Edwards????? There's no reason that his actions should be defended. Period.

Where in his post does he defend either NASCAR or Carl Edwards? He's just pointing out the obvious, especially the part about this discussion not taking place had the #12 not gone airborne (which I've been saying as well).

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by manwell

The thing that gets me is, why would this discussion not have happened if the car didnt get airborne?
Sure, rubbing and bumping is a part of racing, but deliberately hitting another driver to put them out of the race. What other racing series in the world allows that?

Have you read the thread? I listed numerous incidents from the past couple of years where drivers have sent others spinning on purpose, neither which resulted in nearly as much discussion as this most recent one.

[fieldodreams79]

Elliott Sadler:

"I can't comment on what happened between [Edwards] and [Keselowski], because I don't know the past history and stuff like that," Sadler said at Darlington Raceway, where he was one of five drivers testing tires for Goodyear. "I am concerned that the 12 car got upside down so fast at Atlanta, a mile-and-a-half race track. That concerns me more than the payback stuff."

from NASCAR.com

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

So you seriously believe Carl Edwards was trying to kill Brad Keselowski? Really?

Look, I think what Carl Edwards did was a bull**** move as well, but c'mon.. trying to kill? That's like saying Ayrton Senna should have been charged with attempted murder for deliberately taking out Alain Prost at Suzuka in 1990.

Little help.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by DanicaFan

No matter what the penalty was that NASCAR handed down, they would get scrutinized for it. If it had been much harsher, people would of said it was too much, now that its fairly light, people say not hard enough. NASCAR could not win in this decision no matter what.

People would have said it was too much? Not sane people. But apparently that's a demographic NASCAR isn't interested in.

[manwell]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

Have you read the thread? I listed numerous incidents from the past couple of years where drivers have sent others spinning on purpose, neither which resulted in nearly as much discussion as this most recent one.

Well its about time incidents like these do bring up a lot of discussion.
All these people saying that if the car didnt get airborne all this talk wouldnt be happening.
A car doesnt have to get airborne to seriously injur or kill someone, it just has to his the wall at the wrong angle (Dale Earnhardt), and anyone purposely swerving to hit another to take them out of the race car should be penalised with more than just a probation.
Like i said, bumping and rubbing is a part of racing and sometimes that will result in crashes, but deliberate acts to swerve into another car shouldnt be tolerated, this isnt Days of Thunder you know.

[Axeman444]

after reading this thread over the last few days, i understand where are lot of the European people on here (no disrespect intended) are coming from but unless you know NASCAR then most of the comments aren't valid.

Yes the move was dangerous, yes someone could have been seriously injured or worse, but this stuff happens all the time, just not so spectacularly or high profile

NASCAR has said "the gloves are off", well, after saying that, they cannot possibly do anything more than a probation. Simple. You might not agree with it, but that is where it stands.

As to spinning someone at 195mph, where do you draw the line? Edwards spinning Kyle Busch at Bristol after the race, at about 10mph? The crowd loved it (probably coz they all hate Busch though), especially after Busch got a bit stupid on the slow down lap. If that was done during the race, at say 100mph, and someone hit the spinning car, then they could be out for the rest of the race, or injured. You can't say "he shouldn't have done it at 195mph". you either can or you can't. and if you can't, well NASCAR then has to bring in more penalties, drive through's etc, which again opens up another can of works in terms of consistencies and proving that an act was deliberate...

when i started seriously watching NASCAR i followed Edwards, because for a change if he does something wrong, or realises he did something wrong after he believed it was called for, he admits it, unlike some of the others out there. Would Junior have apologised if there wasn't such an uproar about the big one at Daytona(?) last year he caused through his own stupidity?? it took what, 3 - 4 days to apologise? Edwards said the same day - as soon as he saw the footage - that maybe it wasn't Kez's fault in the initial contact

[JHamilton]

I've been watching Nascar for over 20 years and these types of incidents are fairly common. That certainly doesn't excuse them however. We're not in an age of moonshiners anymore; maybe it's time to change the rules. Nascar has become stagnant in many ways and it's affecting their viewership and attendance.

[old man]

It may be that we "Europeans" don't understand NASCAR because we have not watched it enough but for me there is nothing to understand in this incident. CE admitted he deliberately took out BK who was in the lead group as I understand it, CE had nothing to lose at that point but BK had. That on its own should bring a severe penalty.

All this talk about what is normal I understand and I also understand the bumping that is inevitable when all the cars are identical and the tracks simple ovals but deliberate action to cause a crash is plain wrong and very dangerous for drivers and spectators and if it is allowed to continue someone will be killed.

The USA is the most litigeous society there is and unless the driving is policed sponsors and their lawyers/PR people will get worried.

They penalty did not fit the crime IMO

[Flavio Galtieri]

There is an essential misunderstanding in my opinion on this thread between those European fans and those who are predominantly NASCAR, North American based fans.

I first went to Daytona in 85 and was instantly hooked. It is so different when you are there from any motor racing you have seen before, it is impossible for the TV to translate this effect. I have since been lucky enough to see both short track (Richmond and Dover) and the best of them all imho, Talledega.

Road racing drivers in Europe also need to make sure a rival knows he's not going to be a walk over. This happens all the time and drivers usually sort it out between themselves after the race if an incident has occurred.

What Carl did was extreme payback, but that's the sport. It is essentially different from anything else in the world. Montoya has adapted, as I expect Speed and Almendinger will.

His "probation" period will seem a light penalty to many but next time the cars are out at Bristol I bet the viewing figures will soar.

And that will make even Brad's sponsors happy.