Who is the Greatest F1 driver of all time?

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

I think it is quite interesting that nobody has voted for Jackie Stewart, seeing as that Autosport article that restarted this entire debate gave good evidence for why he should be number one.

Stewart might well feature in people’s top five, but never number 1.

Those who lean towards the stats side won’t chose him, those who lean towards the passion won’t either.

That what was good about that article it considered many aspects. I didn’t agree that he should be top, but I can cope.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Respect can be given and earnt. But it can also be demanded.

I think it can too. A certain level of respect is demanded in a sport, in a sportsmanship concept. Driving into people, chopping people on the straight, brake testing are all examples of a driver not having respect for their competitors or the sport.

Another example is here on this forum. A certain respect for other users is demanded.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by chunterer

A lot if the issues I have with modern day greats is how they achieved their success.
All the champions have been quick, skillfull, intelligent and selfish.

It's the bloated stats of Schumacher, Vettel and Hamilton that's the worst part about it.

Originally Posted by chunterer

However for me if a driver has had priority status in a team particularly if the car is either dominant or regularly race winning and the chief rivals don't have such a strong car it takes away the automatic right to greatness imo.

History shows that the most efficient way to titles is to have a no.1 and a no.2 rather than 2 aces. I can understand that if there are 2 or more teams in contention but i've never understood why teams do that if they have a huge advantage like in a lot of the Schu Ferrari era and I would say with Mercedes post Rosberg.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

S griffin is spot onas far as professional decorum on the track is concerned.

Those of you who validate the "hard man" line in racing might want to have a review of your attitude of racing. .

Everyone is entitled to drive the fastest race they can. No one should be backing off on a straight.

That means a trailing car cannot barge his way through past a lead car, and the lead car can't disrupt the momentum of the trailing car.

If you have to blatantly block trailing car who has momentum on you, it means you were napping and didn't start your defence til it was too late.

It's like a defender pulling a shirt and committing a blatant foul when the opposition striker timed his run perfectly.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I’m sorry this is sport not a war. Therefore there has to be respect. For me chopping another driver in the middle of a straight, so it’s ‘back off or we’ll crash’ is not fair game. There’s no skill in that. Mind games are one thing, playing chicken like that with another driver is another. I’ll say it again, this is a dangerous sport and that sort of behaviour should be out of the question

[crmalcolm]

As regularly happens - the conversation has moved to polarising extremes on both side of the debate.

Initially, we were in the middle where the question was around when is something seen as a 'dirty tactic' as opposed to merely being robust. In the context of this debate, the greatness of Senna / Schumacher was referred to due to them being seen by some as employing 'dirty tactics'.

When you look at extremes, then it is clear. If something is dangerous, or likely to cause harm, then it is surely down to the rule makers/enforcers to impose penalties. The comparison to football has been made, but this is where the sporting question stays in my mind:

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

It's like a defender pulling a shirt and committing a blatant foul when the opposition striker timed his run perfectly.

This example is more tame - if you were comparing a 'chop' on a straight to football, I think this is more akin to a two-footed tackle or elbow to the face.
These are offences that warrant a straight red car, and expulsion from the event. In F1, there are also certain actions that would warrant a similar penalty.

The shirt pulling is something that is potentially an offence, and you are liable to a penalty. The penalty is much less severe though. The same is true in F1 - there are examples of minor indiscretions such as leaving the track to complete an overtake etc. - these are also subject to minor penalty such as having to give the place back.

The key here is in understanding how far the rules can be pushed - without detriment to your own result. Sport is about extracting the best possible result in the circumstances under which you compete - and that includes pushing the boundaries of regulation in my mind.

We expect teams to explore innovation and loophole in the regulations to extract the maximum performance. Should we not also expect the same of the drivers to exploit loopholes in the sporting regulations - such as the amount of movement under braking or how much room to leave a competitor.

When does defending become blocking? - I expect a driver to be right on the edge of that boundary, and in doing so will cross it on occasion.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

[S griffin]

Of course part of the problem is for too long the FIA turned a blind eye to some dangerous moves. However putting another driver in danger by pulling a dangerous stunt should be out of the question anyway. For me any driver who does that doesn't deserve respect, whether they get away with or not. Back in the day dangerous chopping would never even be considered and quite right too

[Aysedasi]

I think we get the picture.....

[crmalcolm]

An example of why it is a scale, and we each place our own 'standard' at different points along the scale comes in today's race.

Hamilton running wide on the exit of T4.

The majority of people (I think) might see it as being a bit cheeky - but not many would accuse Hamilton of dirty tactics for doing so.
On the other end of the scale would be deliberately ramming another car - there will be hardly anyone who sees this as acceptable.

Between these two extremes is a scale of standard - and drivers actions will be somewhere along this scale. Each of us will have a different tolerance for how far along this scale we think is appropriate - which is part of the appeal of sport.

[S griffin]

Well I question anyone who wants to see a driver driving into anyone else. It's unsporting, dangerous and quite frankly has no place in F1. How anyone can see that as acceptable IDK. It's ridiculous to even compare it to Hamilton going wide at turn 4. If anything it shows how nigh on impossible it is to police track limits and that we should have better deterrents than just a piece of asphalt....

[Aysedasi]

I still get the picture......

[chillibowl]

with 3 weeks until the next race it sort of feels like the off season again so might as well jump back into this one!

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

As regularly happens - the conversation has moved to polarising extremes on both side of the debate.

Initially, we were in the middle where the question was around when is something seen as a 'dirty tactic' as opposed to merely being robust. In the context of this debate, the greatness of Senna / Schumacher was referred to due to them being seen by some as employing 'dirty tactics'.

indeed.

for my part i am not trying to condone poor or dirty driving tactics but rather trying to suggest that, in the context of these drivers and GOAT threads, a handful of examples of dirty driving does not necessarily invalidate the many accomplishments that merit a drivers inclusion in the GOAT debate.

for me, Schumi's and Senna's many accomplishments on track far outweigh their transgressions hence their obvious inclusion for GOAT.

of course, that one may pick another over Schumi and Senna because that other driver was cleaner and fairer is more then acceptable too.

but there is an irony here in that with Schumi and Senna these examples of dirty tactics come in moments of intense rivalry when the title battles came down to a last race/one corners.

because these incidents came in such important moments they will naturally tend to be more polarizing.

for some a clumsy move or a hit in anger at this time is made worse because they happened at a crucial moment and not in some non consequential mid field battle in the 5th race of the season. for others, the importance of the moment allows us to forgive bad decisions made quickly in the heat of an intense battle.

the point is that there are degrees to these things.

likewise, a driver like LH is often given less credit due to a lack of competition and therefore was not really ever in any of these all important moments of consequence. as a result he looks to be a cleaner driver...yet i cant say anyone is giving him credit for being a clean driver probably because it is easier to be a cleaner driver when one is never put to the test.

we want competition but some then lament the natural outcome of highly competitive people being in highly competition situations.

for my part i am more forgiving and one or two incidents rarely if ever encompasses a whole driving career.

[S griffin]

Hamilton has been praised many times for his sportsmanship, especially Hungary 2017. I’ve said enough on this subject anyway and quite frankly no amount of excuses or ‘spin’ for bad sportsmanship will change my mind on it. That’s why I could never consider Maradona as great as Pele

[chillibowl]

Hamilton for GOAT then

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Hamilton has been praised many times for his sportsmanship, especially Hungary 2017. I’ve said enough on this subject anyway and quite frankly no amount of excuses or ‘spin’ for bad sportsmanship will change my mind on it. That’s why I could never consider Maradona as great as Pele

Ah well, now I can definitely agree with you.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Ah well, now I can definitely agree with you.

Thought you would

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Thought you would

It's a name that I forbid to be spoken in this house.......

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

It's a name that I forbid to be spoken in this house.......

Indeed, to set an example to everyone that cheats never prosper, he should have been banned from the next game after his infamous hand of god goal and if Argentina got knocked out, he could only blame himself

[crmalcolm]

Just putting it out there:

Maradona commits a deliberate handball, and as a result gains an advantage.
Hamilton deliberately runs wide on a corner exit, and as a result gains an advantage.

Similar examples of bad sportsmanship? Or different places on the scale?

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Just putting it out there:

Maradona commits a deliberate handball, and as a result gains an advantage.
Hamilton deliberately runs wide on a corner exit, and as a result gains an advantage.

Similar examples of bad sportsmanship? Or different places on the scale?

The latter in my view. There is a difference between just gaining an advantage and the most blatant of cheating, described in pompous religious terms thereafter by the offender.....

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Just putting it out there:

Maradona commits a deliberate handball, and as a result gains an advantage.
Hamilton deliberately runs wide on a corner exit, and as a result gains an advantage.

Similar examples of bad sportsmanship? Or different places on the scale?

bad sportmanship can include talking trash but no one should describe that as cheating.

for me there is obviously a scale here.

not correcting a ref who made the wrong call or missed an obvious call isnt cheating imo. if it was then all athletes have been cheaters at some point.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

The latter in my view. There is a difference between just gaining an advantage and the most blatant of cheating, described in pompous religious terms thereafter by the offender.....

I agree that they are on a scale - although personally I might not put Maradona's actions as quite as far further along as Hamilton's.

Again though - that is just an opinion, and holding those opinions is part of the beauty of sport. There are some fans of Verstappen this morning who would place Hamilton's actions yesterday in the blatant cheating category.

Which goes back to the subject of greatest driver - and how we judge them.
Does a single action override every bit of greatness from a sporting record?
Does a ruthless streak form part of the DNA in many of those who become great?
Does the intensity of performing at the highest level mean that a competitor is more likely to 'boil over'?

Sporting history is full of greats who have committed indiscretions:

• Henry handball vs Ireland.
• Patriots deflate-gate.
• Australia sandpaper-gate.
• Alonso - crash-gate.

Does that make the rest of their careers any less great?

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I agree that they are on a scale - although personally I might not put Maradona's actions as quite as far further along as Hamilton's.

Seriously? I don't want to derail the thread, but the most blatant of deliberate cheating that (England's later woeful defending aside) could have cost a match win in a World Cup Quarter Final is down the scale from Hamilton's actions? I see no logic in that at all.

But it's not a subject that I have any desire to pursue. Amid all of the idolatry after the Argentinian's death I expended a lifetime of invective.....

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Seriously? I don't want to derail the thread, but the most blatant of deliberate cheating that (England's later woeful defending aside) could have cost a match win in a World Cup Quarter Final is down the scale from Hamilton's actions? I see no logic in that at all.

What I mean is - I think Maradona's offence during the match (not the post-match comments) was a more serious offence than Hamilton's actions this weekend. But not massively so.

When I say 'further along' - I mean that if the left hand of the scale is being late onto the field of play to out-psych the opposition, and the right hand of the scale is committing a Tonya Harding - Maradona's handball is bit further right than Hamilton's running wide.

Both acts could be liable to penalty - Maradona's was more clear cut in being against the regulations.

[crmalcolm]

A definite legacy is the use of the quote "If you no longer go for a gap that exists, you are no longer a racing driver."

Amongst others, it has been used as a defence for:

• Raikkonen vs Bottas 2015 Russian Grand Prix
• Hamilton vs Rosberg 2015 US Grand Prix
• Verstappen vs Grosjean 2015 Monaco Grand Prix
• Rosberg vs Ricciardo 2015 Hungarian Grand Prix
• Webber vs Hamilton 2010 Singapore Grand Prix
• Hamilton vs Massa 2011 Monaco Grand Prix
• Perez vs Button 2013 Bahrain Grand Prix
• Hamilton vs Maldonado 2011 Monaco Grand Prix
• Hamilton vs Massa 2010 Italian Grand Prix