ALMS Round 9/ILMC Round 6: Petit Le Mans 29 Sep -1 Oct

[henk4]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

That's not going to happen and I'm glad it won't. There's no money. American tracks are "old school" and I like that. There is no F1 around to ruin tracks by making them 40ft wide with 500 yards of runoff in every corner while keeping the fans a mile from the action.

There were no "competition cautions" at PLM. If you don't expect safety cars with 53 cars on a 2.5 mile track, you're kidding yourself.

well, we don't have that problem of track limitations over here, so there is absolutely no reason to transplant the US system.
What is a " competition caution"? Isn't that what the Patron crew ordered its driver to create?
And yes, 53 cars (with the slowest cars being almost 20 seconds apart from the quick boys) on a mickey mouse track is asking for trouble. (but we already had this discussion).

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by henk4

well, we don't have that problem of track limitations over here, so there is absolutely no reason to transplant the US system.
What is a " competition caution"? Isn't that what the Patron crew ordered its driver to create?
And yes, 53 cars (with the slowest cars being almost 20 seconds apart from the quick boys) on a mickey mouse track is asking for trouble. (but we already had this discussion).

A competition caution is a Nascar term. A caution that was purposely thrown by the race organizer not due to an on track occurance. This has nothing to do with what ESM did. I don't think anyone agrees with what ESM did.

Calling Road Atlanta a "mickey mouse" track is both ignorant and insulting. You obviously don't like US racing, so my advice to you is don't watch it!

[henk4]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

A competition caution is a Nascar term. A caution that was purposely thrown by the race organizer not due to an on track occurance. This has nothing to do with what ESM did. I don't think anyone agrees with what ESM did.

Calling Road Atlanta a "mickey mouse" track is both ignorant and insulting. You obviously don't like US racing, so my advice to you is don't watch it!

If a track takes more cars than it can handle, with large speed differentials it automatically turns into a mickey mouse track. Thirty five cars should be the maximum there and then you have a great field. The same goes for instance Laguna Seca, it is a marvellous track, but limited in capacity. I have been to Road America, which is possibly the only track (apart from Sebring) capable of swallowing such a field, but then again it is in the middle of nowhere. I have been watching ALMS races, and you possibly know even better than me, the size of the fields. So US tracks can deal with that. But as soon as things go international, there is a problem and tracks become MM tracks according to international standards. That is not insulting, but stating the reality.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by henk4

If a track takes more cars than it can handle, with large speed differentials it automatically turns into a mickey mouse track. Thirty five cars should be the maximum there and then you have a great field. The same goes for instance Laguna Seca, it is a marvellous track, but limited in capacity. I have been to Road America, which is possibly the only track (apart from Sebring) capable of swallowing such a field, but then again it is in the middle of nowhere. I have been watching ALMS races, and you possibly know even better than me, the size of the fields. So US tracks can deal with that. But as soon as things go international, there is a problem and tracks become MM tracks according to international standards. That is not insulting, but stating the reality.

That is not stating reality... that's your opinion. I enjoyed the race thorougly. Can you point me to the International Standards of Mickey Mouse Tracks Handbook please?

The major challenge of PLM is the traffic. Just like the roughness of Sebring is its major challenge. It is what gives the event its own identity. We had no more cautions than we did when there are less than 30 cars on track. None of those cautions changed the overall outcome of the event. What's the big deal?

[henk4]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

That is not stating reality... that's your opinion. I enjoyed the race thorougly. Can you point me to the International Standards of Mickey Mouse Tracks Handbook please?

The major challenge of PLM is the traffic. Just like the roughness of Sebring is its major challenge. It is what gives the event its own identity. We had no more cautions than we did when there are less than 30 cars on track. None of those cautions changed the overall outcome of the event. What's the big deal?

I also enjoyed PLM greatly, apart from those very scarse moments of safety car deployment....

[gregtummer]

The winning Peugeot won Petit Le Mans by 5 laps.

I still had the time of my life and didn't feel cheated out of anything.

In fact, I would have felt cheated if there were a bunch of mystery cautions to bunch the field up in order to have a Sportscenter made for TV style finish.

[ubrben]

Originally Posted by henk4

well, we don't have that problem of track limitations over here, so there is absolutely no reason to transplant the US system.
What is a " competition caution"? Isn't that what the Patron crew ordered its driver to create?
And yes, 53 cars (with the slowest cars being almost 20 seconds apart from the quick boys) on a mickey mouse track is asking for trouble. (but we already had this discussion).

Are you mad... :-P

Petit Le Mans or 6 hours at the mighty Paul Ricard. Let me think...

Clearly you struggle with a racing situation that adds even the mearest hint of complexity :-P

Ben

[henk4]

Originally Posted by ubrben

Are you mad... :-P

Petit Le Mans or 6 hours at the mighty Paul Ricard. Let me think...

Clearly you struggle with a racing situation that adds even the mearest hint of complexity :-P

Ben

I was this weekend at Paul Ricard, can you explain me what your problem is? And for your information, there was no safety car situation during the whole weekend.

[gregtummer]

Bottom line is Road Atlanta is NOT a mickey mouse track.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by henk4

I also enjoyed PLM greatly, apart from those very scarse moments of safety car deployment....

F1 Japan and Bathurst 1000k both had SC deployments for reasons other than total carnage, so it must be everywhere outside of where you are that this is a problem...

[henk4]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

F1 Japan and Bathurst 1000k both had SC deployments for reasons other than total carnage, so it must be everywhere outside of where you are that this is a problem...

I have no problem with a safety car when it is necessary. But that absolutely does not mean that I see a safety car as something positive in a race. I have the impression that Mr. Ben, whoever he is, thinks otherwise. I beg to differ.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

Bottom line is Road Atlanta is NOT a mickey mouse track.

I would consider anything where the fastest lap times are below a minute or so as a MM track. At PLM the cars did a 1.07, so RA is about 10% away from being an MM track

[ubrben]

Originally Posted by henk4

I was this weekend at Paul Ricard, can you explain me what your problem is? And for your information, there was no safety car situation during the whole weekend.

It's sterile, unfriendly and has no atmosphere, relative to Road Atlanta, Sebring or Spa for example. But that's hardly surprising it's a test track, not a race track.

I say that as someone who's worked at the last three Petit Le Mans, Sebring, Ricard and Spa LMS races.

Ben

[henk4]

Originally Posted by ubrben

It's sterile, unfriendly and has no atmosphere, relative to Road Atlanta, Sebring or Spa for example. But that's hardly surprising it's a test track, not a race track.

I say that as someone who's worked at the last three Petit Le Mans, Sebring, Ricard and Spa LMS races.

Ben

Paul Ricard is technically one of the best and safest tracks in the world. And yes there have been some big accidents lately. The big handicap is the lack of visitor facilities, (it was indeed purely designed as a test track), but as you must be aware, the access roads will not be able to cope with a large crowd influx. The latter is also a problem for Spa, but the motorway is relatively close by. I have never been to RA or Sebring, it may be in the schedule for next year.

[vyselegend]

Originally Posted by henk4

I would consider anything where the fastest lap times are below a minute or so as a MM track. At PLM the cars did a 1.07, so RA is about 10% away from being an MM track

henk, I think there is no official definition for "Mickey Mouse track", but it's actually always used by internet people and professional drivers to describe a track with a total lack of inspiration and with a flat / boring layout (like what you would get at Disneyland- childs doing vroom vroom on a track in the shape of Mickey's head. That's the origin of the expression I believe.)

Road Atlanta is quite the oposite of that definition, with it's highly challenging combination of corners, elevation changes etc...
That's why people were annoyed by your comment. But thankfully you clarified your own definition...

Originally Posted by ubrben

It's sterile, unfriendly and has no atmosphere, relative to Road Atlanta, Sebring or Spa for example. But that's hardly surprising it's a test track, not a race track.

I say that as someone who's worked at the last three Petit Le Mans, Sebring, Ricard and Spa LMS races.

Ben

I can understand you call it unfriendly, cause you don't always feel welcome there (it's used for private tests after all). So it certainly doesn't have this warmness other tracks (US tracks especially) may have.

But calling it "sterile" and "with no atmosphere" are overstatements IMO.
It's quite a special place to be. The road to get there in the Sainte Beaume mountain is maybe the most exciting bit of road I've driven on (even with a fifteen year old Saxo it feels great lol), although it's a bit dangerous (someone told me at LM this year that Frank Williams had his terrible accident on this very road around Signes)...

And when inside the Circuit, the atmosphere is not bad at all, you can park in front of the airport and watch planes of all sorts (even military jetfighters) take off and land just few meters in front of you, with the sound of racing cars still behind you. Obviously a large part of the track isn't accessible to the public, which is a shame (especially the whole Mistral straight), but it's been only two or three years since public is back there so we must give them some time to revamp it.

The layout itself is great and praised by all drivers, but I agree the racing has been dull there for the last two years though...

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by henk4

Paul Ricard is technically one of the best and safest tracks in the world. And yes there have been some big accidents lately. The big handicap is the lack of visitor facilities, (it was indeed purely designed as a test track), but as you must be aware, the access roads will not be able to cope with a large crowd influx. The latter is also a problem for Spa, but the motorway is relatively close by. I have never been to RA or Sebring, it may be in the schedule for next year.

So you have never been to Road Atlanta and are calling it a Mickey Mouse track?

Do you even know what it means to be a Mickey Mouse track?

It refers to Formula 1 racing at similar Tike designed tracks with long straights and sharp hairpin turns featuring useless twisty sections with the whole track having runoffs as wide as Nebraska.

Road Atlanta has none of this.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by vyselegend

henk, I think there is no official definition for "Mickey Mouse track", but it's actually always used by internet people and professional drivers to describe a track with a total lack of inspiration and with a flat / boring layout

Sure there is!



And not surprisingly, this real world "Mickey Mouse" track was one of Tony George's brilliant ideas!

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by AGD

Sure there is!



And not surprisingly, this real world "Mickey Mouse" track was one of Tony George's brilliant ideas!

Also the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Road Course was the Ultimate Mickey Mouse racetrack.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by vyselegend

henk, I think there is no official definition for "Mickey Mouse track", but it's actually always used by internet people and professional drivers to describe a track with a total lack of inspiration and with a flat / boring layout (like what you would get at Disneyland- childs doing vroom vroom on a track in the shape of Mickey's head. That's the origin of the expression I believe.)

Road Atlanta is quite the oposite of that definition, with it's highly challenging combination of corners, elevation changes etc...
That's why people were annoyed by your comment. But thankfully you clarified your own definition...



I can understand you call it unfriendly, cause you don't always feel welcome there (it's used for private tests after all). So it certainly doesn't have this warmness other tracks (US tracks especially) may have.

But calling it "sterile" and "with no atmosphere" are overstatements IMO.
It's quite a special place to be. The road to get there in the Sainte Beaume mountain is maybe the most exciting bit of road I've driven on (even with a fifteen year old Saxo it feels great lol), although it's a bit dangerous (someone told me at LM this year that Frank Williams had his terrible accident on this very road around Signes)...

And when inside the Circuit, the atmosphere is not bad at all, you can park in front of the airport and watch planes of all sorts (even military jetfighters) take off and land just few meters in front of you, with the sound of racing cars still behind you. Obviously a large part of the track isn't accessible to the public, which is a shame (especially the whole Mistral straight), but it's been only two or three years since public is back there so we must give them some time to revamp it.

The layout itself is great and praised by all drivers, but I agree the racing has been dull there for the last two years though...

Yes, you may be right. Magny Course was always described as an MM track, and it certainly requires more than 1 minute to do a lap.
So according to that definition RA is NOT a MM track, but is just too short for having more than 50 cars with such large speed differentials on track. Let's leave it at that.

Regarding the atmosphere at Paul Ricard, I am always baffled by the number of security people, dressed in what looks most like paramilitary outfit. And the roads around it are dangerous, because of the idiots on motorcycles that seem to be all over the place during the weekends.

[gregtummer]

Henk4, you should come over next year for Petit Le Mans if it is a part of the WEC.

There are lots of hills and dips along the circuit, which means some great action shots of the cars all along the track.

It is the best spectator road course I've been too. I had a great time!

[henk4]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

Henk4, you should come over next year for Petit Le Mans if it apart of the WEC.

There are lots of hills and dips along the circuit, which means some great action shots of the cars all along the track.

It is the best spectator road course I've been too.

I already had a season media pass for ILMC this year, but going to PLM did not quite fit into our schedule. But next year there might be an option.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

Also the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Road Course was the Ultimate Mickey Mouse racetrack.

I guess an argument could be made for that, but there are rovals that are far worse. In fact, if you want to know what is "Mickey Mouse," in Atlanta, and has sports car/ALMS relevance, just watch this and try not to vomit. Nobody will bash Road Atlanta after seeing that! Look at the crowd size in that video and compare it to what we saw at Road Atlanta last week. Of course, the small crowd in the video could also be explained by the "Mickey Mouse" performance balancing rules of that weekend!

Oh, and I feel kind of bad for posting that picture of the Walt Disney World Speedway here. Davy Jones would probably have won 2 consecutive 24 Hours of Le Mans if it wasn't for that "Mickey Mouse" POS. Oh well, Davy and America's loss was Denmark and TK's gain I guess!

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by AGD

I guess an argument could be made for that, but there are rovals that are far worse. In fact, if you want to know what is "Mickey Mouse," in Atlanta, and has sports car/ALMS relevance, just watch this and try not to vomit. Nobody will bash Road Atlanta after seeing that! Look at the crowd size in that video and compare it to what we saw at Road Atlanta last week. Of course, the small crowd in the video could also be explained by the "Mickey Mouse" performance balancing rules of that weekend!

Oh, and I feel kind of bad for posting that picture of the Walt Disney World Speedway here. Davy Jones would probably have won 2 consecutive 24 Hours of Le Mans if it wasn't for that "Mickey Mouse" POS. Oh well, Davy and America's loss was Denmark and TK's gain I guess!

I have no idea what you are talking about, but are you talking about hard crashes?

I know Davy Jones was known for being hard on equipment.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

I have no idea what you are talking about, but are you talking about hard crashes?

I know Davy Jones was known for being hard on equipment.

I'm not sure what you're confused about, but that Walt Disney World Speedway track was known for causing very serious crashes in it's short history as a professional racing track. One of them was Davy Jones who had a very bad crash in 1997 where he broke his neck in an IRL car. He was driving the Joest TWR-Porsche at the time and won the 24 Hours of Le Mans in 1996 and he would have been on the team that won again in 1997 if he did not get hurt. 1996 was a heck of a year for him. He finished a close 2nd at the Indy 500 and then won Le Mans. So, yeah, I believe TK was his replacement at Joest. The rest is history I guess you can say. No American has come close to winning overall at Le Mans since.

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by AGD

I'm not sure what you're confused about, but that Walt Disney World Speedway track was known for causing very serious crashes in it's short history as a professional racing track. One of them was Davy Jones who had a very bad crash in 1997 where he broke his neck in an IRL car. He was driving the Joest TWR-Porsche at the time and won the 24 Hours of Le Mans in 1996 and he would have been on the team that won again in 1997 if he did not get hurt. 1996 was a heck of a year for him. He finished a close 2nd at the Indy 500 and then won Le Mans. So, yeah, I believe TK was his replacement at Joest. The rest is history I guess you can say. No American has come close to winning overall at Le Mans since.

Sorry. I follow Motorsport, but I refuse to follow IRL.