Street Justice: Edwards' Style (merged)

[old man]

No misunderstanding for me Flavio, I appreciate that to have that many cars screaming round an oval at 200mph inches appart is real thrill for all concerned and requires fantastic concentration and awareness from all the drivers. There must be so much happening and with minimal performance difference fractions of movement, fractions of adjustment to roll bars or tyre pressure, air flow and many other details will have an effect. It must be a wonderful spectacle and I am sure for the teams highly technical

Add into that a driver deliberately throwing another car sideways and anything can and will happen.

They are saying the fact that car started flying needs to be looked at, again there is no surprise there, with all the turbulance that must exist around that track a sideways or reversing car can go anywhere. The areodynamics will be designed for forward motion in turbulent air, as we have seen in sportscars once they get sideways or lose the ground effect.......

I agree, contact is inevitable and it is a wonder and tribute to the drivers that there are not more big accidents but to deliberately start one,.... come on now

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by old man

The USA is the most litigeous society there is and unless the driving is policed sponsors and their lawyers/PR people will get worried.

They penalty did not fit the crime IMO

It might not seem correct to many of us Europeans, but Flavio is spot on - it's the way the sport works. Based on the fact it is seemingly more popular than anything we have to offer, it's obviously a winning formula!

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by old man

They are saying the fact that car started flying needs to be looked at, again there is no surprise there, with all the turbulance that must exist around that track a sideways or reversing car can go anywhere. The areodynamics will be designed for forward motion in turbulent air, as we have seen in sportscars once they get sideways or lose the ground effect.......

Actually it was a big surprise that the #12 went airborne. If you were a regular follower of NASCAR - which I assume you are not - you would know that cars going airborne on the non-restrictor plate tracks (as in; tracks other than Daytona and Talladega) is a very rare occurance.

[old man]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

It might not seem correct to many of us Europeans, but Flavio is spot on - it's the way the sport works. Based on the fact it is seemingly more popular than anything we have to offer, it's obviously a winning formula!

Are you saying that to create crashes is the winning formula?

For me the winning formula is to have so many cars racing so close at such speed and to see how the best drivers can and do get to the front on skill and strategy, that I do not dispute, it is condoning, or not adequately policiing DELIBERATE crashing that I see as wrong and not sport as I know it.

[AndyS]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

It might not seem correct to many of us Europeans, but Flavio is spot on - it's the way the sport works. Based on the fact it is seemingly more popular than anything we have to offer, it's obviously a winning formula!

Are saying somebody deliberatley causing a crash at that sort of speed and endangering not only the other drivers but the spectators is a winning formula? While I wouldn't want to see NASCAR go the way of F1 there's a line and I'm sure our friends on the other side of the pond would agree, Edwards crossed it.

[fieldodreams79]

Bottom line....
no body was hurt...
everyone is talking about it (and talk here will do nothing to influence nascar's thoughts and opinions, FYI)....
made every news sources' sports headlines...
they are heading to Bristol where this happens constantly...

nascar is happy. it's hard to understand because most of what nascar does idiotic.

[Malfunction Junction]

I can't believe some of the short sightedness here;

These two turkeys, Edwards and Keselowski, have been carrying on their own private handbag fight for a couple of seasons now, with the odd diversion to somebody else's space.

The longer they carry on, the more either one is likely to up the ante to the point where lawyers will become richer. Worse, they will encourage others to follow, indeed others have already been following closely.

NASCAR needs to recognise that this is ultimately going to end badly and stop it. Part of the character (note, I did NOT write charm) of NASCAR is the aggro that occasionally comes in but this is getting ridiculous. Since they clearly don't have any interest in taking a conventional disciplinary approach, they need to find a way to make something out of it.

To suit their demograph, they can install a thunderdome at the next race and place the pair of idiots in it until only one survives.

Then, suspend the survivor for the rest of the year.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

Actually it was a big surprise that the #12 went airborne. If you were a regular follower of NASCAR - which I assume you are not - you would know that cars going airborne on the non-restrictor plate tracks (as in; tracks other than Daytona and Talladega) is a very rare occurance.

Exactly, the last time a car got turned over on a non-restrictor plate track due to a blowover was in 2000 at Michigan.

[dyewat808]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

It might not seem correct to many of us Europeans, but Flavio is spot on - it's the way the sport works. Based on the fact it is seemingly more popular than anything we have to offer, it's obviously a winning formula!

Sorry, but those facts are just wrong:

NASCAR viewing figures: tens of millions
FORMULA 1: HUNDREDS of millions to be exact 520 million

Thats half A BILLION people!?!?!?!?

Even if the whole of America watched NASCAR, that would still not reach even half of the viewing figures F1 pulls in:

I now quote (from http://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/article/62420):

A double-digit decline in ratings for NASCAR on Fox has officials researching why the audience is shrinking and what, if anything, can be done to reverse the trend.

Through the season’s first 10 races, Nielsen ratings on Fox are down 11.5 percent and viewership is down 10.8 percent from 2008 numbers, which don’t include a 2008 rainout. Ratings for each of the last seven Sprint Cup races going into last week’s event at Darlington were down by double digits.

Fox’s average rating for the season was a 5.4 with 8.9 million viewers prior to Sunday’s race at Darlington, compared with averages of 6.1 and 10 million for 2008.

[dyewat808]

It also no longer matters whether its the way the sport works or not.
Europeans form a part of the NASCAR market, and if we leave, like some North Americans here seem to be suggesting, then they lose money

In short, NASCAR will lose out.

How can they not lose out?

Change the rules to suit a wider audience. Its that simple.

[cthib10]

Originally Posted by dyewat808

It also no longer matters whether its the way the sport works or not.
Europeans form a part of the NASCAR market, and if we leave, like some North Americans here seem to be suggesting, then they lose money

In short, NASCAR will lose out.

How can they not lose out?

Change the rules to suit a wider audience. Its that simple.

I think there are plenty of areas for Nascar to make changes but they won't and rightly so make it more like F1. Although F1 has a great audience around the world the numbers in the US are terrible much worse than the numbers for Nascar. I just don't think Americans will watch a series that is basically a snoozefest with almost no passing and if someone does happen to make a pass someone screams foul so yea..F1 style won't fly in America.

[dyewat808]

Originally Posted by cthib10

I think there are plenty of areas for Nascar to make changes but they won't and rightly so make it more like F1. Although F1 has a great audience around the world the numbers in the US are terrible much worse than the numbers for Nascar. I just don't think Americans will watch a series that is basically a snoozefest with almost no passing and if someone does happen to make a pass someone screams foul so yea..F1 style won't fly in America.

I agree. Making NASCAR more like F1 is an idea that failed before it even began. I'm not a huge fan of F1 - the races aren't that - they're processions.

HOWEVER, if NASCAR wants to appeal to the "European style of thinking", they must make changes that we agree with. Only then will their TV ratings increase, and their global market increase, too.

[cthib10]

Originally Posted by dyewat808

I agree. Making NASCAR more like F1 is an idea that failed before it even began. I'm not a huge fan of F1 - the races aren't that - they're processions.

HOWEVER, if NASCAR wants to appeal to the "European style of thinking", they must make changes that we agree with. Only then will their TV ratings increase, and their global market increase, too.

I agree Nascar could make changes to appease a larger international audience. I just don't know where they could start without losing the US viewers. It's almost like our American audience has ADD (attention deficit disorder) when it comes to racing if there isn't any action interest is quickly lost. I think Nascar is doing what they can do capitalize on this principle haha.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by dyewat808

HOWEVER, if NASCAR wants to appeal to the "European style of thinking", they must make changes that we agree with.

You are making the mistake of assuming NASCAR cares a lot about the European market. They don't.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by dyewat808

Sorry, but those facts are just wrong:

NASCAR viewing figures: tens of millions
FORMULA 1: HUNDREDS of millions to be exact 520 million

Thats half A BILLION people!?!?!?!?

Even if the whole of America watched NASCAR, that would still not reach even half of the viewing figures F1 pulls in:

I now quote (from http://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/article/62420):

Yes, 520 million people all over the whole world.

Out of those tens of millions of nascar fans, 95% are from one single country.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

You are making the mistake of assuming NASCAR cares a lot about the European market. They don't.

Indeed.

Obviously NASCAR would like a wider fanbase. But it ain't likely to overhaul the system just so some fussy euro folk tune in.

[dyewat808]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

You are making the mistake of assuming NASCAR cares a lot about the European market. They don't.

lol Thats true though. The fact that they have the National Anthem and the flyover at every race confirms that, and the "God Bless America stuff" with the prayer etc (I can't remember the word they give it - not sermon but something similar)

And I agree with what cthib10 said - payback action like that is what makes it interesting, and what gives NASCAR its headlines too, and I agree with what Knowlesy and Matt said.

Its just that with the all news I seem to be hearing about NASCAR losing its fans, and with the empty seats at Fontana this year, it makes me think they should start trying to grab audiences in from beyond North America. I think its getting desperate if they're relying on crashes to give 'em headlines...

It still amazes me though, I must admit - the same headlines would get murdered by the press over here.

[AndyS]

Nascar shouldn't make any changes, it's a great show as it is and makes F1 look pretty dull, but I still say Edwards went too far in this instance. The bottom line is he could have killed or seriously injured somebody. I'm all for close racing and a bit of bumping and barging but that was stupid. He should have been dealt with more harshly, it does not send the right message. Drivers should be allowed to race and by all means drive hard and don't get pushed around, but don't be daft and do something that could have had a far worse out come. Yeah nobody was hurt in this instance, but next time they might be and by not stamping on it harder it makes it more likely that it will happen again.

[dyewat808]

Originally Posted by AndyS

Nascar shouldn't make any changes, it's a great show as it is and makes F1 look pretty dull, but I still say Edwards went too far in this instance. The bottom line is he could have killed or seriously injured somebody. I'm all for close racing and a bit of bumping and barging but that was stupid. He should have been dealt with more harshly, it does not send the right message. Drivers should be allowed to race and by all means drive hard and don't get pushed around, but don't be daft and do something that could have had a far worse out come. Yeah nobody was hurt in this instance, but next time they might be and by not stamping on it harder it makes it more likely that it will happen again.

Sure. I agree, I still think Edwards went too far, there surely must be a line. The fact that NASCAR punished Edwards at all shows that they acknowledge that at least.

[dyewat808]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

I've been watching Nascar for over 20 years and these types of incidents are fairly common. That certainly doesn't excuse them however. We're not in an age of moonshiners anymore; maybe it's time to change the rules. Nascar has become stagnant in many ways and it's affecting their viewership and attendance.

This is what I'm (trying) to say.

[Axeman444]

Originally Posted by AndyS

Edwards ... He should have been dealt with more harshly, it does not send the right message.

Originally Posted by dyewat808

Sure. I agree, I still think Edwards went too far, there surely must be a line. The fact that NASCAR punished Edwards at all shows that they acknowledge that at least.

Originally Posted by old man

CE admitted he deliberately took out BK who was in the lead group as I understand it, CE had nothing to lose at that point but BK had. That on its own should bring a severe penalty...
They penalty did not fit the crime IMO

BUT, NASCAR came out at the start of the year and publicly told them to settle things on the track.

Because they have said that, they cannot punish Edwards any more severly than they have...

I agree its a dangerous precedent, I agree despite being an Edwards fan that he shouldn't have done that at that particular piece of track, but what do you expect when NASCAR says what it did?

[JagtechOhio]

Even though I thought it was a ****** move, Axeman is completely right and my point was the same early in this thread. Nascar invited this sort of garbage before the season started, they would be wrong to blame drivers for the result. That's not the problem.

Sadler pointed out the problem, just like Ryan Newman did after the Talladega '09 spring race. BK's car should never have gotten airborn, and it started to lift before it was backwards.

So you look at the result, and realize that this could have happened whether the contact was intentional or not. That's the problem.

And no, rustyfan, it has nothing to do with whether Atlanta is a restrictor plate track or not. Ryan Newman is an engineer, and a pilot, and spoke out about the problem six months before he took a ride in his flying pig. He talked about how airplanes take off at 160 MPH, and that the lift factors had better be clearly identified and corrected so this problem would not keep recurring. We've seen it happen at 200 MPH, now 190 MPH. Maybe next time it will be less.

But speaking out didn't do a darn thing to keep Newman off his roof last November, and it sure hasn't been resolved yet. Sadler knows it, and many other drivers know it. Nascar said the CoT cars have lift ratios similar to the older cars, and wind tunnel tested them backwards to verify the safety.

Bull.

This isn't even about lawsuits over injuries that could result from the next flying pig, although surely they will come. If there isn't sufficient action taken to insure fan safety, at some point insurance companies won't cover your race, and you don't have one.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

And no, rustyfan, it has nothing to do with whether Atlanta is a restrictor plate track or not.

In my opinion it does, because I doubt Edwards would have put the bumper to Keselowski going through the quad oval had he imagined even for a second that the #12 would go airborne. But because they were at Atlanta, a 1.5 mile track, that thought never crossed Edwards', or anyone else's, mind.

Personally I don't think the wing really makes that much of a difference and I'm quite certain going back to the spoiler will make little difference when it comes to flying cars. As Purist pointed to earlier in the thread, there are more factors playing in that just the wing.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Axeman444

BUT, NASCAR came out at the start of the year and publicly told them to settle things on the track.

Because they have said that, they cannot punish Edwards any more severly than they have...

Of course this is not true. Between settle things and punting an other car of the track at high speed is a big difference.

[fieldodreams79]

nascar has made this bed, and like some stated earlier, this is no longer a sport of moon-shining hill billies and rough necks. it's becoming a G-Q pretty boy show, but nascar is still trying hold on to an "image"....and they ain't fooling me. maybe it is time to change some rules regarding this entire situation and this entire sport....what would they come up with next?

but i can guarantee that Brad K. is going to think twice about rubbing with someone and driving rough in the near future.