[LM24 Race] Le Mans 2011 - Official Entry List

[gwyllion]

I wonder whether we will see the fin on some Lolas. The renderings of the B11/40 (LMP2 open) and B11/80 (LMP2 coupe) had the fin, but because it is no longer mandatory they might not have one.

[Victor_RO]

Some of the "grandfathered" cars might choose to carry the fin though. The Pescarolos probably won't, however when it comes to the Highcroft HPD... it depends on Nick Wirth. Don't want to launch into a chernaudi-like level of speculation, but Wirth has said that some developments from the 01e might carry over to the Wirth LMP1 car being designed for 2012, so... fin?

The new Lolas will probably carry the fin, I guess; maybe they've had significant reworkings under the skin... we don't know yet. Let's see them on track first.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by CTD

The:
Peugeot 908 bis
Audi R18
AMR One
are the only LMP1's which will carry the fin, and therefor being 2011 regulation spec.

I disagree with your definition of grandfathering.

You make a distinction based on rule 3.6.4.a:

A vertical rigid fin:

• must be added to the cars built as from 1st July 2010 (new chassis),
• is recommended for the other cars,
• will be mandatory for all cars as from 01/01/2013

I use article 19:

The LMP1s having participated in at least one race organized according to the ACO specifications before 31/12/2010 will be admitted in 2011 under the condition to keep the full specifications of the 2010 season.
No changes will be permitted in 2011 apart from those necessary for the safety and for the adjustment of performances compared to the 2011 LMP1.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

The new Lolas will probably carry the fin, I guess; maybe they've had significant reworkings under the skin... we don't know yet. Let's see them on track first.

The first computer renderings of the Oreca 03 (see http://www.mulsannescorner.com/Oreca032011LMP2.jpg) also had the fin, but it was dropped on the real car...

Anyway, the recent renderings of the Level 5 Lola coupe HPD still had a fin.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I wonder whether we will see the fin on some Lolas. The renderings of the B11/40 (LMP2 open) and B11/80 (LMP2 coupe) had the fin, but because it is no longer mandatory they might not have one.

As you yourself quote below, the fin is mandatory for all new chassis(tubs).

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Some of the "grandfathered" cars might choose to carry the fin though. The Pescarolos probably won't, however when it comes to the Highcroft HPD... it depends on Nick Wirth. Don't want to launch into a chernaudi-like level of speculation, but Wirth has said that some developments from the 01e might carry over to the Wirth LMP1 car being designed for 2012, so... fin?

The new Lolas will probably carry the fin, I guess; maybe they've had significant reworkings under the skin... we don't know yet. Let's see them on track first.

The fin is a part of the tub, so i do not believe old cars will run it.
Besides, there is no gain with the fin.

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I disagree with your definition of grandfathering.

You make a distinction based on rule 3.6.4.a:


I use article 19:

We can agree on that there is 2 definitions of "grandfathered" cars.
1. Old chassis without the fin.
2. Chassis in 2010 spec, with 2010 engines (except Team Pescarolo)

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The first computer renderings of the Oreca 03 (see http://www.mulsannescorner.com/Oreca032011LMP2.jpg) also had the fin, but it was dropped on the real car...

Anyway, the recent renderings of the Level 5 Lola coupe HPD still had a fin.

The first render of the Oreca 03, was before the regulations was completed (the part about the fin being 2011 only).
The Level 5 Lola Coupe HPD Fin might be a mistake, or they have bought a brand new chassis.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by CTD

The Level 5 Lola Coupe HPD Fin might be a mistake, or they have bought a brand new chassis.

According to http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...al-lmp2-effort they will have 3 LMP2 Lolas: 1 B11/40 (open 2011), 1 B11/80 (coupe 2011) and 1 B10/80 (coupe 2010).

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

According to http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...al-lmp2-effort they will have 3 LMP2 Lolas: 1 B11/40 (open 2011), 1 B11/80 (coupe 2011) and 1 B10/80 (coupe 2010).

Then you have the answer right there.
The reason the Level 5 Lola carry a fin, is because it's a 2011 car

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by CTD

The fin is a part of the tub, so i do not believe old cars will run it.

Not according to the rules:

The fin can be integrally fixed to the engine cover and/or fixed rigidly to the chassis, rear wing and rear structure (on a “bridge”).

It can be part of the bodywork.

Originally Posted by CTD

Then you have the answer right there.
The reason the Level 5 Lola carry a fin, is because it's a 2011 car

The tub will still be the same as the first LMP2 coupe, so the fin is probably not a requirement.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Not according to the rules:

It can be part of the bodywork.

And in actual fact, how the **** can you make it part of the tub without compromising engine installation and servicing horribly? Part of the tub = you can't remove it when removing engine covers.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Not according to the rules:

It can be part of the bodywork.
The tub will still be the same as the first LMP2 coupe, so the fin is probably not a requirement.

If the Tub is produced in 2011, you have to race it with the fin

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by CTD

If the Tub is produced in 2011, you have to race it with the fin

That still does not explain why Oreca can build 6 new 03 cars (2x Signature, Race Performance, Oreca, Boutsen, TDS) without a fin

I doubt there are so many old LC75 tubs lying around.

[Victor_RO]

They may be produced in 2011, but the tub design has only slight variations from the LC75 which was first homologated in... 2006?

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

That still does not explain why Oreca can build 6 new 03 cars (2x Signature, Race Performance, Oreca, Boutsen, TDS) without a fin

I doubt there are so many old LC75 tubs lying around.

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

They may be produced in 2011, but the tub design has only slight variations from the LC75 which was first homologated in... 2006?

I'm sorry i didn't explained myself properly. With "produced" i mean designed and homologated in 2011.
Ei. The new Lola tubs.
Oreca just continue to produce the same old LC70 chassis.

[gwyllion]

Rule 3.6.4 says "a vertical rigid fin must be added to the cars built as from 1st July 2010 (new chassis)".

I interpret that as follows. If you already have a LMP1 or LMP2 car from last year and convert it to the 2011 rules (smaller fuel tank, smaller engine, ...), you do not have to add the fin. If you buy a new car (i.e. tub built recently), you have to add the fin.

For me that means that the Oreca 03s which have a newly built tub, need to run the fin.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Rule 3.6.4 says "a vertical rigid fin must be added to the cars built as from 1st July 2010 (new chassis)".

I interpret that as follows. If you already have a LMP1 or LMP2 car from last year and convert it to the 2011 rules (smaller fuel tank, smaller engine, ...), you do not have to add the fin. If you buy a new car (i.e. tub built recently), you have to add the fin.

For me that means that the Oreca 03s which have a newly built tub, need to run the fin.

I do not think we are the only ones discussion this area of the rules.
There seems to be a lot of confusion around this topic, and this can be seen in many of the different statements from different teams. (some show with fin, some without)

[gwyllion]

Pecom has received their new Lola B11/40 and the car has a fin: http://endurance-info.com/version2/i...Lola_Pecom.jpg

That means that we will see a bit more cars with fins this year. This still does not address the issue of the new Oreca 03 not having one.

[gwyllion]

Another update on grandfathered cars.

According to http://pitlane-vision.com/index.php?...tte&Itemid=119 the RLR MG-Lola EX265 will run with a minimum weight of 920 kg. That implies that the car does not meet the price cap. Consequently it must also run with a smaller restrictor than the cost capped LMP2.

[jc_nl]

The MG LOLA has no link to the cost cap as it only involves (a part of) the new built LMP2 cars.

If I am not mistaken (do correct me if I am wrong here) of the 2 LOLA new built LMP2 options, only the open top car complies with the cost cap, the coupe is a grandfathered 2010 car.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by jc_nl

The MG LOLA has no link to the cost cap as it only involves (a part of) the new built LMP2 cars.

The way I understand it, the RLR MG Lola complies with 2011 LMP2 rules (smaller fuel tank, production based engine, no fin necessary because built before June 2010, ...), except it does not meet the cost cap. Therefore it has to run with some extra restrictions: 920 kg instead of 900 kg and smaller air restrictor than cost cast LMP2 (2 x 28.9 mm instead of 2 x 29.6 mm in case of Judd BMW V8).

All this is explained in article 19 of the rules:

LMP2 2010 : The models of LMP2 cars homologated before 31/03/2010 which do not meet the above-mentioned price criteria may run in 2011, 2012 and 2013 with the following conditions:

• A new homologation form identical to the 2011 LMP2 one must be completed. The specifications listed in this homologation form cannot be changed except for safety or reliability reasons.
• ...
• The weight of the car must be 920 kg minimum.
• The restrictor diameter must be the one specified in appendix 1-D.
• ...

Originally Posted by jc_nl

If I am not mistaken (do correct me if I am wrong here) of the 2 LOLA new built LMP2 options, only the open top car complies with the cost cap, the coupe is a grandfathered 2010 car.

The open Lola B11/40 is indeed designed for the cost cap:

The Lola B11/40 will enable all privateer teams to compete in the new cost-capped LMP2 class using a proven endurance sports car product.

source: http://www.lola-group.com/newsstory.asp?NewsId=260

The closed Lola B11/80 on the other hand is probably too expensive and hence also has to run with a higher weight and smaller restrictors:

The Lola B11/80 will be available at the same price as the current 2010 spec LMP2 Coupe.

source: http://www.lolacars.com/newsstory.asp?NewsId=262

[Le Vieux]

Originally Posted by KA

DSC have published an analysis of the entry, suggesting that Drayson's absence isn't a surprise, and that they're 'sitting on' a story to be revealed later re Drayson..

There seems to be a long hatching time for this story.

Are DSC still "sitting on it"?, was it a ploy to get more subscribers? or is it a dead duck?

[gwyllion]

The reason for Drayson absence was revealed yesterday: Drayson Racing goes electric

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by Le Vieux

There seems to be a long hatching time for this story.

Are DSC still "sitting on it"?, was it a ploy to get more subscribers? or is it a dead duck?

Well, it'll make as much noise as a dead duck!

Incidentally, amidst all the wild speculation surrounding the future of Drayson Racing, I would suggest DSC were simply letting us know that there would be clarification of the Drayson situation in due course, but could say nothing more until the team were ready to announce. So, now you've read the story, please don't tell me they would use this particular piece of news as a ploy to attract new subscribers!

[Le Vieux]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

So, now you've read the story, please don't tell me they would use this particular piece of news as a ploy to attract new subscribers!

Old men are allowed to be cynical!

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by Le Vieux

Old men are allowed to be cynical!

Indeed!