The Future of F3

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by bella

but there's other things too. how much would you then spend on developing the car yourselves to make it as competitive as the ones at the front, for example? if you used the same number of staff, and took out the factory overheads that are de rigeur now how much would it cost absolute bare minimum to run a f3 car today?

then you have to think ok, well you're buying the chassis from a small engineering company. how much has lack of competition pushed the rates up? cost of materials? anyone who makes anything knows the raw material costs for metals have gone up hugely in the past 5 years alone, completely out of line with inflation. how many people does it take to build and engineer a basic chassis now versus then (genuine question, i have no idea)? what are the percentages for labour, materials and machining compared? so many things have changed.

don't get me wrong, things clearly have changed for the worse for everyone except the very well off, simply from a prize money perspective! but i'm not sure it's as simple as just saying it cost this to buy then, now it costs this much. maybe it is, but i can't quite imagine it's that simple!

No, I'm sure, as you say, it is a lot more complex than I make it sound (as I said, my workings were only rough, down-the-pub type, calculations). I still think, despite increased material costs though that the motorsport industry hasn't done itself too many favours in the long run.

One thing that has vastly increased beyond inflation is entry fees. When my dad first race in the late 1970s/early 1980s, entry fees made up between 5-10% of your yearly budget. Now they make up between 35-45%; and that's usually to do less races now than then. But, as we've seen, don't get me started on circuit management...

[bella]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

One thing that has vastly increased beyond inflation is entry fees. When my dad first race in the late 1970s/early 1980s, entry fees made up between 5-10% of your yearly budget. Now they make up between 35-45%; and that's usually to do less races now than then. But, as we've seen, don't get me started on circuit management...

oh god, not the soapbox

i suppose the problem is that many series want to distance themselves from the trailer and transit van entrants. but how much is doing that limiting your entries from competitors who would at least, make up the numbers and make sure the pro guys at the front have someone else to race against?

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by bella

oh god, not the soapbox

i suppose the problem is that many series want to distance themselves from the trailer and transit van entrants. but how much is doing that limiting your entries from competitors who would at least, make up the numbers and make sure the pro guys at the front have someone else to race against?

In the late 1990s, the British Formula Ford Championship (when running Zetec) actually had a rule that stated you had to turn up with a lorry in order to look professional!

To their credit, RacingLine were very accommodating of our plans to race a Duratec this year and turn up with van and trailer. Then they introduced the EcoBoost car and ruined our plans.

If we could afford to, we'd certainly 'have a go' at more professional championships, turn up in a van/trailer but the problem is money. The cars now cost too much and it is nearly impossible to find sponsorship unless the businesses that you approach are headed by family or close friends.

I'll avoid the soapbox again

[andy97]

Its not that long ago that talented drivers could operate out of a Transit van & off a trailer and go and work on the rigs or on a building site in the close season to get money together for a season of racing but now, with F3 budgets at £600K per year the that category is out for most, unless your name is something like Chilton.

[bella]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

If we could afford to, we'd certainly 'have a go' at more professional championships, turn up in a van/trailer but the problem is money. The cars now cost too much and it is nearly impossible to find sponsorship unless the businesses that you approach are headed by family or close friends.

I'll avoid the soapbox again

i'm guessing teams who already have the cars are unwilling to lease them out? presumably you'd also be stuck for data and setup, so you'd need someone who knew the car to start with to help.

i suppose it's a result of the professionalisation (new word, w00t) of the sport. f1's turned pro, so the pressure is on the teams below that to demonstrate a f1 level of professionalism. then the series they're in want to do the same and we're all wearing team gear, polishing a truck and pretending to be something to try and get the fathers with full wallets to hand it to them and not the awning next door.

soapbox away but i'm pretty sure the forum is set up to send any posts beginning "in my day...." to the historic forum by default

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by bella

i'm guessing teams who already have the cars are unwilling to lease them out? presumably you'd also be stuck for data and setup, so you'd need someone who knew the car to start with to help.

i suppose it's a result of the professionalisation (new word, w00t) of the sport. f1's turned pro, so the pressure is on the teams below that to demonstrate a f1 level of professionalism. then the series they're in want to do the same and we're all wearing team gear, polishing a truck and pretending to be something to try and get the fathers with full wallets to hand it to them and not the awning next door.

soapbox away but i'm pretty sure the forum is set up to send any posts beginning "in my day...." to the historic forum by default

Thing was, this is my day. I was only born in 1990

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by andy97

Its not that long ago that talented drivers could operate out of a Transit van & off a trailer and go and work on the rigs or on a building site in the close season to get money together for a season of racing but now, with F3 budgets at £600K per year the that category is out for most, unless your name is something like Chilton.

+1. Kenny Acheson, after winning all three FF1600 championship, managed to find the money to buy a March 793 and run himself to (I think) a couple of BF3 victories, with his dad as helper/mechanic.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

In the late 1990s, the British Formula Ford Championship (when running Zetec) actually had a rule that stated you had to turn up with a lorry in order to look professional!

To their credit, RacingLine were very accommodating of our plans to race a Duratec this year and turn up with van and trailer. Then they introduced the EcoBoost car and ruined our plans.

If we could afford to, we'd certainly 'have a go' at more professional championships, turn up in a van/trailer but the problem is money. The cars now cost too much and it is nearly impossible to find sponsorship unless the businesses that you approach are headed by family or close friends.

I'll avoid the soapbox again

The junior formulae is a bug bear of mine that I could write endlessley on - but thankfully won't. INO there are 2 issues.

The FIA overall and MSA for the UK need to decide what role they wish junior formulae to play. Is it to be a training ground for drivers, engineers, mechanics, team managers, etc, etc or is it a purely a rich mans pleasure for only those who can afford it, a luxury in effect. If it is seen as the training ground then it should be treated as such and part funded by those who will ultimately benefits from it. The F1 teams and owners of Formula One.

There is a massive amount of money made by a handfull of people in F1, CVC that own it will float or sell the business in due course, making a massive profit for very little actual investment in F1 over and above buying it from BE in the first place - some of this needs to filter down to junior levels that will be supplying the drivers and F1 personnel of the future.

As it is we have a piecemeal set of lower formulae, many limping along with mid-teen grids, delivering poor value for spectators, poor value for series promoters and by default a devalued winner with less competition.

Say for example, the FIA employed an international motorsport tax on either F1 teams or on FOM TV rights income, that was used to subsidise FIA only accredited junior formulae. The idea would be to change the lower series ladder e.g.

GPJ - GP Junior
GPS -junior slicks and wings
GP3- as before
GP2 - as before

The FIA could go as far as commisioning spec cars for each level which are determined by the F1 technical working group as being sufficient to deliver what they believe is the level of driver/engineer/mechanic/team manager experience development at each level and for cars to be run on a set budget. From the f1 income a bursary is created so the winner is guaranteed to step up to the next level, similarly drivers could not leap a level without competing in the lower ones - no buying your way up the ladder.

Of course there are and have been many driver ladder schemes from Red Bull to manufacturer schemes and racing steps - but there are just supporting selected drivers and IMO the time is right for a more structured approach.

[ivanalesi]

If FOM & FIA had some sense, they would be trying to bring motorsport to the masses through back to basics karting! A tactic used by American sports leagues in China & India. But they don't have much sense, so we can only dream until F1 is owned & managed by such people.

[strider]

Here's a report of the first F3 Euro Series test and the times:

Pos  Driver                Team/Car                  Time       Gap
 1.  Felix Rosenqvist      Mucke Dallara-Mercedes    1m27.118s
 2.  Pascal Wehrlein       Mucke Dallara-Mercedes    1m27.256s  + 0.138s
 3.  Raffaele Marciello    Prema Dallara-Mercedes    1m27.336s  + 0.218s
 4.  Daniel Juncadella     Prema Dallara-Mercedes    1m27.690s  + 0.572s
 5.  Sven Muller           Prema Dallara-Mercedes    1m27.738s  + 0.620s
 6.  Lucas Wolf            URD Dallara-Mercedes      1m27.946s  + 0.828s
 7.  Michael Lewis         Prema Dallara-Mercedes    1m28.034s  + 0.916s
 8.  Sandro Zeller         Zeller Dallara-Mercedes   1m28.353s  + 1.235s
 9.  Philip Ellis          GU Dallara-Mercedes       1m29.533s  + 2.415s

No wonder they wanted some help from the FIA.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by strider

No wonder they wanted some help from the FIA.

Why do you have to be so ridiculously positive about anthing British F3 but so transparently negative about everything else?

British series last week had 12 cars, 10 of which were new cars. EuroSeries had 9, all new cars at their first test. At the first British test they had 9 new cars and 2 old.

Not that different is it?

Euroseries starts 3 weeks later than British, so they also have more time for mythical new entries.

[edenrace]

Zellers car is a National car or whatever they call them in the Euroseries.
Mercedes give support to Euroseries teams as they support the DTM races
You may see VW (Audi) do the same in the next week or 2 with another team joining funded by them.
British Series does not run with DTM so has to stand on its own feet.
At Silverstone test this week we will have 11 new cars and 2 National cars.
Sadly third National cars driver is ill in Japan and may not return but CF will have 1 or 2 cars for Oulton.
In 1983 when Ayrton won the British F3 ,title grids ranged from 9 to 18 but averaged out at 15....this, I think ,did not alter his career.
Lets stop complaining about the state of race series and enjoy the motor racing we have.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by edenrace

Lets stop complaining about the state of race series and enjoy the motor racing we have.

There are postings on Facebook this morning indicating that the Formula Renault UK championship for 2012 is not going to happen. If these are true, it's one less series we have.

[strider]

Originally Posted by davyboy

There are postings on Facebook this morning indicating that the Formula Renault UK championship for 2012 is not going to happen. If these are true, it's one less series we have.

They are true. Technically the word used is that it has been 'postponed' for a year.

It's very unfortunate for the prospective competitors who were ready to go.

Maybe one or two drivers will do National Class BF3 instead.

[ivanalesi]

Originally Posted by edenrace

Mercedes give support to Euroseries teams as they support the DTM races
You may see VW (Audi) do the same in the next week or 2 with another team joining funded by them.

I think that's a myth. Both brands do support some drivers, but this support is partly the engine bill for the most promising drivers and there were zero VW cars in testing. May be Mortara's or Merhi's engine bills were fully paid, but not much more. Signature have some funny policy about drivers, so they may not show up on testing until the end.
If I have to be fair, when you look at the budget, the tracks, the teams and the race weekend - F3ES looks a better deal than BF3. On top of it, budgets are lower than in BF3 because of the testing restriction, but this didn't stop F3ES drivers dominating the big races and as a result getting more headlines. Anyways, F3 in general is in a bad shape, so comparing which series is less worse is just pointless. They both need to start working together along with the FIA to bring back the costs as they were at least 10 years ago.

[edenrace]

Free engines save approx £100,000....non GP circuits and Brands Indy better than GP circuits on British calendar....keep on dreaming.

[peebee2]

The biggest problem the likes of British F3 has is the stubborn attitude of the few who can't see anything wrong with people paying 750k including private tesing.

On the day Formula Renault UK was canned, I am sure they still think everything is OK!

[edenrace]

Oh if only all the teams received £750,000 , with new car purchases this year(cost £150,000 with gears, wheels,Bosch parts etc) £550,000 is nearer the mark,however if a driver asks for use of apartment,car and all expenses paid plus extra races Zandvoort , Macau etc then naturaly it becomes more especialy so if he has undertaken quite a few days with winter testing.

[davyboy]

Even £550K is ridiculous ! It needs to be less than half that figure !

[edenrace]

Wake up....if it was possible then F3 teams would do it for that
Engines £100,000 Tyres £50,000 fuel £2.50 ltr, Entries £1800 per event, front wing mainplane £2350, premises, staff, transport,insurance.
F Renault is under £200,000 with live TV and has just been cancelled due to lack of entries so thats not the answer.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by edenrace

Wake up....if it was possible then F3 teams would do it for that
Engines £100,000 Tyres £50,000 fuel £2.50 ltr, Entries £1800 per event, front wing mainplane £2350, premises, staff, transport,insurance.
F Renault is under £200,000 with live TV and has just been cancelled due to lack of entries so thats not the answer.

If you believe that cost is not one of the major issues, then I'm afraid it's not me that's living in dream world. Not very many people in the UK have between half and three quarters of a million burning a hole in their pocket to spend on their kid's fun - as borne out by the lack of interest. The formula is out of kilter with the times we're living in and needs to be reformed. FR UK has its own problems, cost is also an issue there too.

[tristancliffe]

Originally Posted by edenrace

Wake up....if it was possible then F3 teams would do it for that
Engines £100,000 Tyres £50,000 fuel £2.50 ltr, Entries £1800 per event, front wing mainplane £2350, premises, staff, transport,insurance.
F Renault is under £200,000 with live TV and has just been cancelled due to lack of entries so thats not the answer.

The engines are stupidly expensive. I could supply an engine more powerful that lasts longer and that acts more like a normal race engine (be it F1 or anything) for about £10k. Just ditch the restrictors and a non-modified road engine will be 90% as quick. A bit like Euro Open F3...

They don't NEED to use £50k worth of tyres. Very easy to limit them to two sets per meeting and 2 per test day.

Fuel is what it is, but my engines would run happily on road pump fuel at £1.40/l.

Entries are expensive compared to club racing, but not that bad considering the level of promotion etc.

Spares always expensive - small volume carbon just is.

Most of the cost seems to be over the top numbers of staff, and poncy facilities that aren't really needed in the real world.

They could halve the annual budget easily without effecting the nature of the championship on the ladder, but the people that milk money out of the series would have to buy a cheaper car.

[edenrace]

I agree ,that is why we have Spanish F3, National Class in Britain, F2 even however the next step is WSR or GP2 £1,000,000 to £2,000,000 and these drivers want to test and pay for training with top engineers to progress their careers.British F3 allow 2 sets as you say @£565 a set, then wets and testing tyres come into it. Very happy for teams to join the National class,Mugen race engine approx £30,000 so MSV cup competitors are very welcome.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

Most of the cost seems to be over the top numbers of staff, and poncy facilities that aren't really needed in the real world.

This. You only have to look at the size of the trucks, transporters, awnings etc that everything has got out of hand in order to try and create a 'mini-F1' in terms of style and presentation.

For example, do the teams need the awning partitioning? No. It is an unnecessary cost. Do they need their own PR and catering staff? No. Circuits and hospitality companies do a more than good enough job at providing the same services if a driver wants to invite personal sponsors to a race event.

Although there aren't any this year because of the Carlin/Fortec monopoly, if you are running a two car team, do you need an articulated lorry as a transporter? No. A smaller rigid would be sufficient and would dramatically reduce fuel, tax costs.

'Professionalism' has been the blight of the sport in my opinion. As soon as you stop 'dad and lad' with their van and trailer progressing up the junior ladder you are asking to eventually decrease grid sizes.

And yes, small-batch carbon manufacture is costly for the quality levels you need on a racing car, but then why use carbon? Aluminium tubs are more than safe enough with modern design and fibreglass bodywork the same. This would reduce car manufacturing costs and allow privateers to buy a car.

Teams may not be making a lot of money (though that's partly because they employ far too many people, at least at an F3-onwards level they do) but someone somwhere most certainly is. Dallara? The engine suppliers? The promotors? Entry fees are unnecessarily high, even if you take out the circuit hire charge. British F3 is hardly promoted well is it. I mean, does your average man on the street know about it? Do people local to each circuit know about it when a meeting is coming up? No.

Right, I'll dismount my soapbox...

[Andrew Kitson]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

+1. Kenny Acheson, after winning all three FF1600 championship, managed to find the money to buy a March 793 and run himself to (I think) a couple of BF3 victories, with his dad as helper/mechanic.

Kenny's dad wasn't mechanic, Paul Thompson was, who was works mechanic at Royale in FF1600 for Yves Sarazin in '77 and Kenny in '78. Designers Rory Byrne ( 1977 ) then Pat Symonds ( 1978 ) as the engineers..in the proper days when 'engineers' ( like Paul ) were called mechanics, as they should be. I was team gofer at Royale in '78. Paul went on to Eddie Jordan's F1 team. Rory as we know went to help form Toleman Racing in F2 in '78 and took Pat with him later...both on to greater things.
Chris Craft told me when he did F3...long long ago in the 60s..he'd spend all summer taking his car around Europe, on a trailer, earning enough prize money to live and move on to the next event the next weekend. Many Brits did it, gypsies on the road. Yes times have changed..more professional..but far too extreme, it has again gone back to a sport for the very very wealthy at most levels.