RBR expect Gap to Mercedes to increase in 2015

[JeremySmith]

RedBull Racing...

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

RedBull Racing...

I like it.

[Gingers4Justice]

This is starting to get boring now.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118163

[GT6]

They appear to have written off this year already and expect to finish well down the list

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by GT6

They appear to have written off this year already and expect to finish well down the list

And it's all Renault's fault. Apparently.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

This is starting to get boring now.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118163

I haven't read more than the headline and intro, but that is telling enough. Apparently they, Red Bull, are whinging because the so called deficiencies of the Renault PSU affects them more than Toro Rosso. I take that to mean that the junior team have designed a better car than the senior outfit, and they don't like to be put to shame by their "inferiors".

I really, really think that Red Bull's honchos should do what Toto Wolff recommended (can't repeat it before the watershed), and stop making themselves look even more foolish.

[Gingers4Justice]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/32050898

Looks like I'm not the only one fed up with Red Bull's spiel.

I really can't see this "partnership" lasting much longer. I guess Renault would normally keep a humble silence but the fact they've bitten suggest to me that they're serious about becoming a works team, with them clearly not being afraid of losing Red Bull.

But where does that leave them? They're not going to become a customer team to one of their rivals in Mercedes or Ferrari.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/32050898

Looks like I'm not the only one fed up with Red Bull's spiel.

I really can't see this "partnership" lasting much longer. I guess Renault would normally keep a humble silence but the fact they've bitten suggest to me that they're serious about becoming a works team, with them clearly not being afraid of losing Red Bull.

But where does that leave them? They're not going to become a customer team to one of their rivals in Mercedes or Ferrari.

Credibility Abiteboul a car salesman who is playing the man vs. Newey an actual F1 engineer criticising a power plant, I know who I believe!

More worryingly:

If RBR split from Renault, who will give them an engine:

"It's not impossible that the threats made after Australia that Red Bull might quit the sport are less empty than initially believed, although they, like all teams, are contracted to F1 until 2020."

Pull the branding off the car and don't update anything, or just start a fight and leave!

Engine updates would look to be a good place to start a fight!

If Renault pull the plug and RBR don't have an engine, it could be a good excuse to pack up the tent and leave!

[mikuni]

RBR just need to sit tight until mid-season and re-evaluate the situation then. This mudslinging is doing themselves and Renault no favours, and I really don't see the point behind it. RBR are trying to deflect their poor and embarrassing performances, and perhaps encourage Renault with a big of negative press and internal conflict - the latter can work, where it is the right approach, only time will tell.

Obviously they are also hoping that these outbursts will draw attention of Bernie and the FIA and encourage changes to help Renault get the upper hand, but that is a little bit underhanded. Imagine if RBR were sandbagging, and that is the reason STR are actually quicker at the moment.

But back to my original point, if they wait until all the tokens are spent, until mid season and see how things are looking longer term, that makes a lot more sense to me.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by wnut

Credibility Abiteboul a car salesman who is playing the man vs. Newey an actual F1 engineer criticising a power plant, I know who I believe!

More worryingly:

If RBR split from Renault, who will give them an engine:

"It's not impossible that the threats made after Australia that Red Bull might quit the sport are less empty than initially believed, although they, like all teams, are contracted to F1 until 2020."

Pull the branding off the car and don't update anything, or just start a fight and leave!

Engine updates would look to be a good place to start a fight!

If Renault pull the plug and RBR don't have an engine, it could be a good excuse to pack up the tent and leave!

Newey has form, in that he has in the past blamed "deficiencies" in his cars on the power plants. Virtually every report about this war of words acknowledges this fact. So, Abiteboul, who is very gracious in his praise of Newey, may have a very valid point. Especially so as Red Bull claim that the junior team is not affected so much; why say that if they are not being totally honest about their own car? And furthermore, Renault have stated, more than once since testing started in February, that they had capitulated to Red Bull's demands that they should increase the power output of the PSUs even if they had not been tested fully and properly, and that they had warned Horner and co that this may be the end result.

I believe that this is becoming more and more of a commercial response to the situation that they are finding themselves in. Red Bull, the team and the drinks company, are getting embarrassed by being so wrong footed by the opposition, both Mercedes and Ferrari, and this may lead them to making decisions purely for commercial reasons. As is said, if they broke of the relationship (you can't now call it a partnership) with Renault, then it is almost impossible that Mercedes would supply them because they like to be involved in the way the PSUs are packaged in their customers' cars, and it may not be likely that Ferrari would want to supply them again after Red Bull switched the engine supplies with Toro Rosso; Ferrari were somewhat miffed at that move by Horner and Marko.

All in all, I think that Red Bull are lining their ducks up, and if the FIA don't give in and force Mercedes, and possibly Ferrari, to "detune" their total packages down to Red Bull's level, and that they are trying to establish a way to exit F1. It seems to me that they are trying, in every possible way, to force the FIA to do their bidding, and they are not being very subtle about it.

[Richard C]

Putting aside the obvious that a Mercedes or Ferrari do not want to provide someone like Red Bull with engines as they are a strong competitor... Imagine any supplier watching Red Bull rake Renault over the coals publicly and think.... Why would we want them as a partner?

Richard

[steve_r]

Has everyone else in the entire world forgotten that we are ONLY one race into the season?

[mikuni]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Has everyone else in the entire world forgotten that we are ONLY one race into the season?

Nope.

Originally Posted by mikuni

RBR just need to sit tight until mid-season and re-evaluate the situation then.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I believe that this is becoming more and more of a commercial response to the situation that they are finding themselves in. Red Bull, the team and the drinks company, are getting embarrassed by being so wrong footed by the opposition, both Mercedes and Ferrari, and this may lead them to making decisions purely for commercial reasons.

What other reason would there be?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by mikuni

RBR just need to sit tight until mid-season and re-evaluate the situation then.

By mid season there is no point, the championship will be done!

So why bother!

[Paradise City]

They are both right and they are both wrong. Renault does lag behind. Has done for a year or so now.

STR's performance heavily suggests that Red Bull designed a lousy car though. Newey may feel embarrassed at his absence and is resisting pressure to come back.

Given a ready lack of alternatives for Red Bull and Renault's willingness to go it alone, Red Bull is going to have to moderate their tone here because if they continue to antagonise them there's really no incentive for Renault go out on the limb for them.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

They are both right and they are both wrong. Renault does lag behind. Has done for a year or so now.

STR's performance heavily suggests that Red Bull designed a lousy car though. Newey may feel embarrassed at his absence and is resisting pressure to come back.

Given a ready lack of alternatives for Red Bull and Renault's willingness to go it alone, Red Bull is going to have to moderate their tone here because if they continue to antagonise them there's really no incentive for Renault go out on the limb for them.

The bad engine does effect RBR's better car more than STR, or should rather.

The RBR pushes closer to the boundaries of the aero envelope, this allows them to produce more downforce for a given amount of drag, the problem though is the once the critical boundaries of the aero are exceeded it becomes very inefficient. In other words the car is more sensitive at the limits than the STR and more difficult to keep within those limits.
The Renault engine in its current form is apparently extremely peaky and "undriveable" hence Ricciardo and Kvyat cannot balance the car well enough to use the aero properly. The STR apparently is less sensitive, or has a larger less sweet spot, but ultimately less peak performance.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

They are both right and they are both wrong. Renault does lag behind. Has done for a year or so now.

STR's performance heavily suggests that Red Bull designed a lousy car though. Newey may feel embarrassed at his absence and is resisting pressure to come back.

Given a ready lack of alternatives for Red Bull and Renault's willingness to go it alone, Red Bull is going to have to moderate their tone here because if they continue to antagonise them there's really no incentive for Renault go out on the limb for them.

Renault have no short term choice either as they can't independently enter as a team this year and possibly next and will have to cop whatever RB wants to say. They would not like that at all so they have no choice if they don't want to receive a verbal hiding and a lot of bad press except get their act together and sort out the issues. RB have been on this bandwagon for some years and it is well known that it was the chassis/driver combination that that got them up front as the motors were down on power. The other side of the coin is what do RB do if the Renault motor flops this year, Renault form their own team and RB become a secondary customer after the factory team. I don't care what anyone says, no customer gets the same motor as a primary factory team, it doesn't make sense to think that would not be the case. MB sure would not be knocking on their door to sell them motors, likewise Ferrari as well. There is no way RB can develop a motor within any reasonable time and why would anyone develop a motor now when you know the next generation is very close and the regs will change blowing all that money down the sewer. I reckon it is nil all and they had better have a deep and meaningful chat and sort things out.

[wolfhound]

Horner now says that equalisation in F1 is "probably not" right for the sport.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118217

What will he come up with next?

[Casper]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

Horner now says that equalisation in F1 is "probably not" right for the sport.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118217

What will he come up with next?

Reality has set in or he ran out of drugs

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

What will he come up with next?

im pretty sure you have to buy this week's Autosport Magazine to find out!

for me maintaining the status quo is the problem in F1 so i am a bit sad to hear Horner reign in his earlier comments and sad that yet another opportunity to bring about a sensible compromise has seemingly fallen by the way side again.

the kind of sport i want to watch requires multiple protagonists competing for victory. F1 seems to be saying that wont happen this year and it doesnt look likely to happen next year either while Horner and RB have been sufficiently chastised for speaking up.

so chalk this up as another lesson f1 will no doubt not learn anything from as most people actually interested is seeing some competition in their sport will be far better served looking for the Cricket World Cup finals on their Pay TV provider this Sunday.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

so chalk this up as another lesson f1 will no doubt not learn anything from as most people actually interested is seeing some competition in their sport will be far better served looking for the Cricket World Cup finals on their Pay TV provider this Sunday.

Australia V NZ, it should be an awesome game unlike the let down tonight.

[Gingers4Justice]

I don't doubt for one moment that Renault is lagging behind, and have clearly failed to deliver. I understand Red Bull's frustrations - it's just the way they've gone about it that I really don't like. Look at the BBC Sport website, or Autosport, and over half of the RB-related articles are senior Red Bull figures whinging about engines (new word: whenging?) and it appears from the outside that Red Bull's only answer to their poor start is to a.) complain about how far ahead Mercedes are and b.) complain about the engine Renault have supplied them.

You might say it's just Red Bull playing politics, but when teams play politics, it's usually a tad more subtle than this...

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Casper

Australia V NZ, it should be an awesome game unlike the let down tonight.

a few years ago i never would have imagined myself thinking such thoughts but here i am.

the level of competition, the number of world class competitors, and the desire from the organizing body to present their sport in a contemporary and accessible format has won me over. Rugby has done a similarly excellent job in recent years.

two examples of old sports that went from (my point of view) approaching irrelevance to being great examples of a new more modern global sport culture.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by wnut

The bad engine does effect RBR's better car more than STR, or should rather.

The RBR pushes closer to the boundaries of the aero envelope, this allows them to produce more downforce for a given amount of drag, the problem though is the once the critical boundaries of the aero are exceeded it becomes very inefficient. In other words the car is more sensitive at the limits than the STR and more difficult to keep within those limits.
The Renault engine in its current form is apparently extremely peaky and "undriveable" hence Ricciardo and Kvyat cannot balance the car well enough to use the aero properly. The STR apparently is less sensitive, or has a larger less sweet spot, but ultimately less peak performance.

I am highly skeptical of the idea that the nature of the PSU is causing RBR significantly more issues than STR. I think the simple answer of RBR vs. STR performance is that the RBR chassis/aero may have issues and/or STR got it right this year. It all can't be down to the PSU.

I also don't follow the staff changes that closely, but given the departure of Newey, I wonder how deep the aero/design department might be. Maybe his departure has resulted in a huge hole and we are now seeing that.

Richard