IMSA Race 2017 - Rolex Daytona 24

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Scorchess

Not really, to most people it's pretty clear. I don't know why some people choose to come to IMSA's illogical defense when it's so clear to see.

Anyway, this is just the start. IMSA dug a hole for itself, let's see how far they're going to keep digging.

I'm an IMSA cynic, but I'm a realist about available information. We know the Rebellion Oreca was only 2/10ths off the Cadillacs in qualifying, and they were slowed by problems when ideal fast lap conditions arrived during the race so we do not know if they would have been able to keep fast laps within that margin.

Every single non-Cadillac was consistently slower than they were at the Roar by a not insignificant degree - not all of this can be attributed to holding back for reliability.

The Cadillacs were also the most developed cars in the field, so even if BoP was perfect they were likely to dominate.

Additionally, Daytona requires unique BoP due to it's unique characteristics.

So no, it is NOT clear how much the Cadillacs need to be restricted. We only know that they DO need to be restricted.

[TzeiTzei]

Cadillac showed up with a car that was tested and ready. Everybody else has a lot of work to do and IMSA shouldn't give them any freebies. Gibson were limiting the power of their engines, the Nissan DPi is a work in progress, Mazda is a Speedsource project, Visitflorida had a high DF package... I would leave BoP as it is and see what happens.

[gert]

Between them, the Cadillac driver had 91 laps that were faster than Jani's fastest lap.
And 182 that were faster then the best lap the next-fasted non-Cadillac driver (Hartley) had all race, 200 that were faster than the third-fastest (Lapierre)

Now, compare that with GTD or GTLM...

[gert]

Originally Posted by TzeiTzei

Cadillac showed up with a car that was tested and ready. Everybody else has a lot of work to do and IMSA shouldn't give them any freebies. Gibson were limiting the power of their engines, the Nissan DPi is a work in progress, Mazda is a Speedsource project, Visitflorida had a high DF package... I would leave BoP as it is and see what happens.

IMSA told that would BoP the DPi's up/down to put them level with the fastest P2.
(No changes to the P2s as per agreement with ACO)

If that is what they told/promised, then that is what they should have done.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by gert

IMSA told that would BoP the DPi's up/down to put them level with the fastest P2.
(No changes to the P2s as per agreement with ACO)

If that is what they told/promised, then that is what they should have done.

Indeed they should, but it's not exactly the easiest thing to do. Even if you know 100% the exact performance differences, balancing them out is no easy feat. A restriction that seems sensible can have a cascading effect that makes it cause an even greater restriction than planned - say a weight increase to slow them in the corners that makes it effectively impossible for the car to corner at all. If the series takes too big of a swing at something, that WILL happen(and it may have - we all recall the GTD Porsche issues at the end of last year. To some it was whining, but there WAS evidence to support the claims that the GTD BoP had made the Porsches very difficult to set up and drive - they were not slow, just problematic).

Maybe it'll make something else work out better and nothing will ultimately change. Say, for instance, you decrease their power to remove top end speed, but the reduction in power makes the car less prone to wheelspin coming out of a corner, enabling faster cornering and offsetting the restriction in the ultimate lap times, keeping them at an advantage.

Or if you add weight to restrict said cornering, but the added weight causes a more efficient redistribution of ballast that makes the mechanical grip better, offsetting the restriction, keeping them at an advantage.

These obviously aren't happening EVERY time a car gets bopped, but they're issues that can occasionally pop up, and as noted taking too big a swing can lead to an unfairly harsh restriction(the only time the series should be taking massive swings at BoP is for official test sessions).

Regardless of whether or not IMSA is trying to be fair, there are going to be hiccups along the way. I don't trust IMSA to be fair, but in the absence of concrete info I won't make accusations, even when it DOES look suspicious.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by gert

It has NOTHING to do with cooler temperatures.

On lap 4 - that is way before anyone hit problems - all 3 Cadillacs posted a time that would not be bettered by any other car at any time in the race (bar Jani)

On lap 10 the #5 posted a time that even Jani would never reach.

The fastest lap was by Felipe Albuquerque on lap 165, with a time of 1:36.269 and speed of 133.0 Mph, 214.043 Km/h.

[Rcz]

Bop or not the Cadillacs were the best cars. There are basically LMP1 lites right now.

[gert]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The fastest lap was by Felipe Albuquerque on lap 165, with a time of 1:36.269 and speed of 133.0 Mph, 214.043 Km/h.

I know that, I was just pointing out that early on (lap 5 or lap 10) the Cadillacs were already posting times that the other would never reach.
The Cadillacs themselves went faster many more times after that.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by gert

I know that, I was just pointing out that early on (lap 5 or lap 10) the Cadillacs were already posting times that the other would never reach.
The Cadillacs themselves went faster many more times after that.

The Cadillacs didn't even hit 1:36 until the evening fast laps were being posted. Prior to that they were within times the Rebellion Oreca had set, and others cars had proven capable of at the Roar - 1:37s and 1:38s(and most of which confirmed that capacity during the race).

[Gingers4Justice]

All things being equal, I would expect the most developed car, raced by two of the most experienced teams at Daytona, piloted by those drivers, to win and to win convincingly.

BOP should be used to level potential performance, not clip someone's wings because they've done a good job.

Let's see where we are a few months into the season.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

All things being equal, I would expect the most developed car, raced by two of the most experienced teams at Daytona, piloted by those drivers, to win and to win convincingly.

BOP should be used to level potential performance, not clip someone's wings because they've done a good job.

Let's see where we are a few months into the season.

Due to the agreement regarding P2/DPi balancing, if IMSA genuinely intends to be fair they'll HAVE to restrict the Cadillacs at least a little bit.

But I don't think it'll be much given how close the Rebellion Oreca got in qualifying.

[Scorchess]

Originally Posted by Rcz

Bop or not the Cadillacs were the best cars. There are basically LMP1 lites right now.

Not even close. Let Rebellion bring their R-One and they would dominate those badged P2 cars.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Due to the agreement regarding P2/DPi balancing, if IMSA genuinely intends to be fair they'll HAVE to restrict the Cadillacs at least a little bit.

But I don't think it'll be much given how close the Rebellion Oreca got in qualifying.

It does look like that may have to happen, but wild assertions shouldn't be made on the back of one race. For example, the expertise on hand at the two Caddy teams in setting the car up for a circuit as unique as Daytona is probably worth half a second in racing conditions alone.

Daytona comes a little too early for the European teams. If Rebellion were that far off at the Glen then I'd be concerned.

Nobody can make judgements until the picture is clear.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by Scorchess

Not even close. Let Rebellion bring their R-One and they would dominate those badged P2 cars.

Would they?

There are rumours that the new P2 cars could be producing privateer P1 lap times at Le Mans, and the R-ONE never completed a 24 hour race without delay with an AER engine behind the driver.

The poster described them as "LMP1 lites" anyway, implying they are almost like P1 cars but not quite. That's a fair comment. It's styled bodywork attached to an LMP1-standard tub with a powerful engine in the back. A spectacular product which is food for thought for the ACO and the FIA.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

All things being equal, I would expect the most developed car, raced by two of the most experienced teams at Daytona, piloted by those drivers, to win and to win convincingly.

BOP should be used to level potential performance, not clip someone's wings because they've done a good job.

Let's see where we are a few months into the season.

I think Riley and SoD have some reason to take issue with calling the Cadillac the most developed car with the best drivers when the Cadillacs had multiple technical problems and were either off track or hitting other cars on several occasions while the #90 ran trouble free and its drivers performed exceptionally in downpour conditions.

I'm frustrated with people trying to apply this attitude to a situation where the Gibson and Cadillac motor have absolutely no basis for equivalency besides BoP. There's no theoretical restrictor table or anything to provide an even starting ground that BoP is being applied to after, their relative performance is 100% arbitrary.

[Scorchess]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

A spectacular product which is food for thought for the ACO and the FIA.

What? Why?

I don't see why it's so spectacular. It's basically the P2 formula until this year with the only difference being that GM and Mazda are allowed to slap their badges on it. Why would that be of any interest to the ACO?

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

A spectacular product which is food for thought for the ACO and the FIA.

What exactly makes DPis so much more "spectacular" than the new LMP2 formula? FWIW, the Oreca is both better looking and the Gibson engine is better sounding than the Dallaraillac.

Aside from the option to run different engines I don't think this type of badge engineering excites European sports car fans. People very well know these aren't really Cadillacs, Mazdas or Nissans...

[Rcz]

I wish IMSA did allow privateer P1 cars to race. I think the DPi would just be as fast

[chernaudi]

Fox, you do seem to be missing a point that I think that several have hinted indirectly at. The Chevy/Cadillac V8 is 6.2 liters, while the Gibson is 4.2 liters. Two liters does mean a lot of swing in terms of torque. In terms of single laps, everyone probably could've been matched, but more torque is a big edge in terms of consistency, especially in traffic.

We know this from when the Porsche RS Spyder raced against the Audi R8, when the RS Spyder and Acura LMP2s ran against the Audi R10, they hybrid cars in the WEC, etc. If one wants to balance the two engines to make up for torque, either the Gibson engines will need larger air restrictors for more power, or the Caddies will need a power cut.

[chernaudi]

Looking at pics of the #10 Cadillac, I'm surprised that WTR held on for the win if the #5 got close. It was missing the whole right front splitter section of the front diffuser outboard of the front fender.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Fox, you do seem to be missing a point that I think that several have hinted indirectly at. The Chevy/Cadillac V8 is 6.2 liters, while the Gibson is 4.2 liters. Two liters does mean a lot of swing in terms of torque. In terms of single laps, everyone probably could've been matched, but more torque is a big edge in terms of consistency, especially in traffic.

We know this from when the Porsche RS Spyder raced against the Audi R8, when the RS Spyder and Acura LMP2s ran against the Audi R10, they hybrid cars in the WEC, etc. If one wants to balance the two engines to make up for torque, either the Gibson engines will need larger air restrictors for more power, or the Caddies will need a power cut.

Oh, I haven't missed that, it's just been rather...off of my main point, though it it's not exactly irrelevant as it does help underline the point. I haven't really been trying to make a point about what's possible and what each car's capable as much as why regardless of actual intent it's going to be difficult to balance things - why things aren't as clear-cut as some people think. The closeness of the quali laps and the dropoffs from the other teams is a much more obvious contributor to the muddiness of the issue.

[Scorchess]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Aside from the option to run different engines I don't think this type of badge engineering excites European sports car fans. People very well know these aren't really Cadillacs, Mazdas or Nissans...

Yeah that's the main point I think. It seems so odd to me, this 'styling' thing. It seems a bit insulting, as if the racing fan can't distinguish between a prototype that's just for racing and a GT car based on something they might buy for the street.

Everybody knows they can't buy the Mercedes F1 car and it looks nothing like a Mercedes besides the color, yet their succes has directly translated to more car sales (according to them anyway).

Audi, Porsche and Toyota could not give a toss if their LMP1 car looked like any road car because they know people are smart enough to understand the message that racing technology can transfer to road car technology without the racing car having similar looking headlights. I don't understand why Cadillac can't just claim people can buy the exact same engine that won the Daytona 24 hour without having to restyle and rebadge a Dallara.

Anyway DPi excites me personally because it means there's more diversity in sportscar racing which to me is always good.

[TF110]

Once the electronics are sorted and the Gibson engine can run at it's full potential, they should be ok against the current state of the Cadillac's.

[Rcz]

Not just Gibson, those ESM Nissan I think will be very competitive, they ran way better then I expected for their first outing.They just need a little bit more development

[Scorchess]

I see no reason why the ESM car would not run well, Ligier tested the chassis well and it has a proven GT3 engine in the back. For them it's mostly about the drivers in my opinion, they could not cut it at world level and they can't cut it here either.