[LM24 Race] 2017 Le Mans 24 Hours Race Thread

[J Jay]

The top half looks almost exactly like a marshal's overalls, but the darker patch on the legs isn't part of the uniform.

Who was that person then?

[Akrapovic]

He's quite clearly wearing a HANS device. That's a driver. G-Drive are in garage 45 and 48. That's maybe a bit far from the exit.

[Creep89]

Good spotting. But what did the driver intent to do?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Creep89

Good spotting. But what did the driver intent to do?

It's an Algarve Pro driver. The right arm is black on the top, the left arm is orange on the top. The black band around his waist is actually dark blue for Flexbox. Algarve are also Garage 60.

That is, 100% sure, an Algarve Pro driver. Choices are

Mark Patterson
Matt McMurry
Vincent Capillaire

[broadrun96]

Should be able to eliminate the guy on track at that time if someone searching timing. But wow, thinking that driver may be in for some post race meetings with the ACO and Freitas after that move.

No, asking who it was and talking with them does not mean Toyota are free and clear. Just means we'd like to know what happened to stop it later.

[Akrapovic]

I don't know who was on track at the time, but this driver is fully suited and booted. He's either just getting in a car or just getting out a car. My bet is about to start a stint.

Vincent Capillaire has a largely red helmet, and the logo on the front matches the design on the back of the driver suit. I'm putting money on Vincent Capillaire is the mystery man.

Edit: other 2 drivers helmets don't look even close. I'm 90% sure it's him.

[bjohnsonsmith]

How bizarre. This race has thrown enough curves already.

[FGE]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Right, now the race is done, I have to say that the most disappointing think about this race, wasn't the race. It wasn't even the coverage (which was ropey, to say the least). It was some of the attitudes on this forum, that were so overwhelmingly negative and determined to find a downside and fault to EVERYTHING in the event. We even had someone on this forum say he hopes cars he doesn't like crash. That was a poor show and has no place on places like this IMO.

However, I fail to see what the problems were with this race.

In LMP1, the race was declared over before the start. There's no way a Porsche could match the speed of the Toyotas. 2 of them were just too fast, and the 9 would pickup pace surely. Then the #2 Porsche broke, and the race was declared over, because no way the one single Porsche could beat the 3 Toyotas. And then the #8 Toyota broke, and the race was still over, because that Porsche couldn't beat the 2 Toyotas. And then the #7 broke and the #9 crashed. The race was once again declared over, because there's no way anyone can catch the #1 Porsche now. All it had to do was cruise to the finish - FACT as it was declared. And then the #1 broke...and it was declared over again, because the #2 was easily going to catch the LMP2s. Jesus tap dancing christ, how many times was this race declared over, and a non-race, a non-event, an easy win?

This was an old school race. A race of reliability, not just performance. That is how Le Mans was right up until 2000, when the game changed. The #2 Porsche won after spending an hour in the pits. Well that's exactly how the #26 Porsche won in 1998. It spent over an hour in the pits through the course of the race, constantly getting fixed. That's often what Le Mans was. Not just who is fast, but who can survive, and in some cases, who can fix, or patch the cars up, enough to get them to the end. That race was old school, and we seen the team which could fix the car the quickest wins. Welcome to Le Mans - this is not new, and it is still interesting and exciting.

Cars coming home with very little reliability issues is the exception to the norm. That's something we've only started seeing in the last 15 years or so. People say "Oh the Audi wasn't bulletproof because it hard turbo problems". Turbo problems were common for decades. The fact you can individually name every Audi reliability issue over 15 years, whilst some cars have had more in a single race is proof of how much it's changed. The ultra strong reliability that came along around 2000 is not actually the norm, so this sort of racing is just old-school.

We also had hissy fits that an LMP1 might not win, and that's a disaster and embarrassing having no other LMP1s ready to take over behind. Really? Was it a disaster when the McLaren won in 1995? That shouldn't have beaten the prototypes on paper and it did. That was remembered as a great win. Why wouldn't this have been?

It's also very common for classes to be mixed, and not that long ago too. In 2007, only a decade ago, the LMP2s not only finished behind the GT1s, but behind the GT2s as well. LMP675 was often even worse. What we seen with LMP2 at the front is not that unusual in the history of Le Mans - it's just been unusual, again, since 2000.

That, was an absolutely brilliant, old school race of endurance. Anyone saying it wasn't old school and was all decided early hasn't seen enough Le Mans.

For LMP2, we had a brilliant battle all the way through. We had some reliability issues, but it wasn't crippling. We seen Rebellion start strong and stumble, but came home second. We had someone declare how terrible it was that a spec car was leading Le Mans. Nonsense of course, since P2 is not a spec class, since there are 4 chassis, not 1, and it is simply a customer car, and customer cars are the backbone of Le Mans. That LMP2 class has kept enough cars at the circuit to keep Le Mans with a full grid, so lets stop whining about it. We'd all like to see more variety, but that doesn't make everything about it bad.

LMP2 could do with a prune, but that'll happen with LMP1-P becoming more popular. Some cars were out of their depth, but that's always been the case at Le Mans. We're still better off than we were 10 years ago, when JLOC were blowing up gearboxes every 5 minutes, Krohn was still crashing cars, and T2M were pretending they could honestly really run a prototype.

What we actually got was a great race, some great driving, and some old school engineering (cut a hole in it! that'll work!) to get a podium. We knew the Riley was a bag of bolts, and we're disappointed in the Ligier and Dallara. But the racing was still good, and the best teams won again.

For GTE, we had people shouting about how nobody could beat an Aston and Ford got shafted. The reality is the Corvette beat the Aston on pace, and failed on reliability. The Ford was on the lead lap, and the Porsche would've been had it not had a puncture. The Ferrari also would've been but got passed at the end. That was a mega close battle, and the BoP was spot on.

There were complaints about Slow Zones and LMP2 driving, but frankly I think we've got very short memories here. How many times have we sat through 2 hour safety cars, especially at night? The Slow Zones saved us from that. LMP2 drivers were significantly better than we've seen in the past too. Want a full grid of 180 pros? Not going to happen, and certainly never has happened.

That race was absolutely brilliant. A proper endurance race. A proper old school Le Mans. I understand being gutted if you're a Toyota (or a Corvette) fan, but the rest of it was great. Whilst Le Mans and WEC is far from perfect, there really is not a need to decided the whole thing sucks and hate it all. That was a good proper Le Mans, and a very legitimate one. I'm just gutted it's over now!

Oh and coverage - Eurosport Player was excellent. Smooth, HD and no ads...

Thanks for this words.

[broadrun96]

From S365 article about Toyota:


The No. 8 car, meanwhile, lost nearly two hours replacing the front MGU, the same issue to hit the eventual race-winning No. 2 Porsche, which completed its repair in half the time of the Toyota.

Vasselon explained that its electric motor is “extremely difficult” to replace and had never been an issue in the past, while team director Rob Leupen explained they elected to also change the battery out of precaution.

Leupen admitted they “maybe wouldn’t have finished” the race had they not replaced the battery, which he said cost them between 30-45 additional minutes in the garage.

“The front motor is so reliable that we never need to change it,” Vasselon said. “It’s something we don’t do. It’s very integral and it’s not straightforward.”


Ouch, it seems repairs are not an integral part of Toyota's plan. Maybe find some Audi guys to consult, I know one is consulting for FoxSports right now who would have told them why not make it easier to repair?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

From S365 article about Toyota:


The No. 8 car, meanwhile, lost nearly two hours replacing the front MGU, the same issue to hit the eventual race-winning No. 2 Porsche, which completed its repair in half the time of the Toyota.

Vasselon explained that its electric motor is “extremely difficult” to replace and had never been an issue in the past, while team director Rob Leupen explained they elected to also change the battery out of precaution.

Leupen admitted they “maybe wouldn’t have finished” the race had they not replaced the battery, which he said cost them between 30-45 additional minutes in the garage.

“The front motor is so reliable that we never need to change it,” Vasselon said. “It’s something we don’t do. It’s very integral and it’s not straightforward.”


Ouch, it seems repairs are not an integral part of Toyota's plan. Maybe find some Audi guys to consult, I know one is consulting for FoxSports right now who would have told them why not make it easier to repair?

That just proves the point then. They did not prep enough. They did not do everything they could. Everything is reliable until it breaks, and you need to be ready for things breaking. Toyota were not.

[broadrun96]

Makes me wonder how old they are? Do they rebuild the MGU or just assume everything looks good so let's keep it in there?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Makes me wonder how old they are? Do they rebuild the MGU or just assume everything looks good so let's keep it in there?

In addition to this (from the page you linked) -

“At the same time the tire destroyed the recovery system and the oil cooler over the engine, so at the same time we lost the engine and the gearbox,” he explained.

“We tried to come back in electric mode, and then we ran out of battery.”

Confirmation that the gearbox was destroyed by the tyre. If the 9 was driven more slowly, it'd have gotten back and probably won the race.

[Scorchess]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

In addition to this (from the page you linked) -

“At the same time the tire destroyed the recovery system and the oil cooler over the engine, so at the same time we lost the engine and the gearbox,” he explained.

“We tried to come back in electric mode, and then we ran out of battery.”

Confirmation that the gearbox was destroyed by the tyre. If the 9 was driven more slowly, it'd have gotten back and probably won the race.

He was stuck in 5th gear.

[Scorchess]

What a weird story about the Algarve Pro guy, what the hell was he doing?

[kvenom]

That Algarve Pro Driver/Team have some massive explanations ahead of them. I'm sure Toyota have already brought this to race control.

[kvenom]

This moron needs to be seriously reprimanded.

[Akrapovic]

I'm presuming everybody knows by now. Toyota press releases still calling it a fake marshal. But I very much doubt we on Ten Tenths are the first to work out who this person was.

IIRC, cameramen have to wear white overalls so that they cannot be mistaken for a marshal. Weird that the problem the ACO were trying to avoid still happened, just with a driver.

[Akrapovic]

Yeah that is 100% Vincent Capillaire helmet.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Scorchess

He was stuck in 5th gear.

But was that before or after the tire shredded the rear?

[JoeW04]

Originally Posted by kvenom

This moron needs to be seriously reprimanded.

I thought it seemed a bit odd at the time, not quite sure what to make of it, ceartinly come out in the coming days :/

[tux]

Turns out that Yoluc didn't crash the TF sport car once during the week. Actually in all seriousness in the last 18 months he's really improved and calmed down.

[Lagunaseca_4life]

I remember watching the on board when that happened with fs1 on tv.i remember thinking NOOOO that's a penalty that wasn't a marshal he had a helmet.and fs1 also picked up on it thinking it was a teammate.but the onboard stopped and started a few times and they say that ruined the clutch.

[Creep89]

I love this dude's look in the background

[Maelochs]

I agree with you ... thsi was the definition of "old school."

This was the kind of race that drew me to the sport---teams breaking dowen and fighting back, frantically rebuilding their cars in the wee hours, struggling to get back into contention ....

The whole "A series of one-hour sprints" stuff didn't start until Audi arrived. I don't mind it, it is just different. I'd rather cars be able to run fast, than run very slowly all night and then race for an hour the next afternoon .. but a race like this, where people went hard and risked breaking and recovered ... epic.

[FIRE]

What a race!