Robin Miller on Texas-style racing

[dirtfan]

"TMS president Eddie Gossage said he was "very pleased" with the fence's performance. Nothing of any size reached the grandstands, and the fence did not grab the car and stop it suddenly, a situation that likely would have caused internal injuries."
200 Gs sounds pretty suddenly to ME! Actually, it's the length of time the 200 Gs are applied that counts, or "the envelope". Your thumb probably experiences lots of Gs when you hit it with a hammer, but not for long. If the gate post had moved back a foot, or sheared off and stretched the non-existant cables, there would have lots less Gs. Things have to give a little (like the SAFER barrier or the crush structure on the tranny) to lessen the impact.
"Orthogonal"- ranks right up there with "quadrature" and "gaussian" in my favorite engineering buzz-word list. -Just kidding!

[paul-collins]

[pitpopsie]

200 g was the maximum through the whole accident. I think it was caused by the tub spinning like it did as it rebounded onto the track. I would be surprised if that amount of g was caused when he hit the fence.

[Jordi]

Greg's fatal crash was 154 G, so it goes to show. Only Greg was unluckier.

Maybe after all we should look at the bigger picture... Are these speeds safe for Texas? Can they tone it down to 200-210 with less wing or engine reductions? Texas is not the widest oval there is, either.

The racing at Fontana in CART is significantly safer (in terms of wheel-to-wheel closeness) since the speeds are a bit reduced.

[Teretonga]

Crossing the road is dangerous. Crossing a six lane highway without looking is more dangerous. Oval accidents tend to have more serious consequences because of the proximity of walls and the effects of cars launching into the air at speeds of 200+ mph.
Chris Amon of Can Am and F1 Ferrari fame tried a mclaren Indy car back in 1970 and simply couldn't run competitively at speed. Proximity to the wall unnerved him. He climbed out after those two days testing and ever went back to it.
Drivers make choices. Officials and organisers make choices.Regulations and design rules should be made with the object of reducing the risk as much as possible without defeating the purpose of racing. IRL cars are strong.
Dixons comment after Motegi was something like "Its not a matter of if you have an accident but in these cars when..(you have an accident)"
Gil won Indy, banged himself up, decided enough was enough (especially as Roger had signed a third driver) and won pole and his last race. Happy healthy retirement Gil.
But the truth is he is in just as much danger riding to the local 7-Eleven as he is running at 200+ at Texas. in fact if an accident does happen he is probably more likely to seriously hurt in the road accident as he is on the race trackin spite of the lower speeds.

[Mal]

The point which indicates something has to be done is that there have now been three accidents this year in which spectators would almost certainly been killed had they been in the relavent grandstand. Sooner or later it will happen if something isnt done. Reading the reports of Tony Rennas tragic accident yesterday, the gearbox and much of the car ended up in the grandstand. If that had been fullthen we are talking of an accident on the scale of Lemans 1955, god forbid. The Racing authorities need to act on the warning signs before such a tragedy happens. Forget for a second about driver safety, it is the spectators who are now at a significant risk.

[racer69]

But does debris ending up in stands mean that something needs to be done to the cars, or something needs to be done to the fencing surrounding the circuit.

The Brack accident wasn't a fault of the car, and if the report i read about Renna's car getting airborne after changing surfaces (from grass to tarmac), then that is hardly the cars fault.

[Mal]

But why the spate of such accidents this year? Is their a tendancy for the cars to get airboure? If a car becomes airbourne at 200+mph then there is a very real danger of debris ending up in the stands and short of a 20ft high concrete wall what type of fencing is going to stop that. Also it is one thing for small debris ending up in the stands, but a gearbox hitting a stand full of people at 200mph doesnt bear thinking about.

[racer69]

What spate of airborne accidents? I count 4, Andretti, Wheldon, Brack and Renna.

Andretti's was caused by debris on the track, which at that speed, clipping something and getting the front wheels off the ground a few millimetres was always going to produce that result. Wheldon lost a right rear wheel which always pushes the front left up into the air, only this time he was still travelling fast enough that the air just caught it and flipped it over. The there was Brack's accident which involved interlocking wheels.

All of those involved factors outside the car, and are hazzards of high speed oval track racing, the risks are always going to be higher.

I'm not sure that we'll ever know the real reason for Renna's crash, but reports i've heard about him clipping the grass, to also possibly have been hitting some debris, could put the accident in the same category as the other three.

Investigations will be done and probably changes made, lets just hope they are the right one's, which for me, doesn't have much to do with the cars themselves.

[Mal]

I would call 4 (5 according to the article below)airbourne crashes in one year in one series a spate. I am not necessarily blaming the cars as I am not qualified to understand. But I am saying the authorities need to take a very careful look at the cars, circuits and circumstances behind the crashes as there appears to be a very real chance of a terrible crash involving spectators.

Interestingly grand prix.com have since published the attached article in which they describe the 'spate' of crashes in IRL and discuss the implications for racing as a whole. They also note that IRL cars have flat bottoms which accentuate the problems once air gets under the car. This is the same problem which has caused similar problems in sportscars including Peter Dumbrecks infamous flying Mercedes and has led to fundamental rule changes being implimented next year

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns12081.html

[Bizzo5000]

Isn't 4, 4 too many?

[rustyfan]

A flat bottom was a big contributing factor to Michele Alboreto's fatal crash at Lausitzring as well. That, and the fact that the roll-hoop on the Audi didn't stand a chance when the car landed upsidedown.

[climb]

Flat bottom and splitter profile

[Jay]

More from Robin Miller.... and this time, I think he is 100% right...

http://msn.espn.go.com/rpm/irl/2003/1023/1645010.html

some highlights form Mr. Miller...

Open wheel racing on superspeedways, specifically the Indy Racing League brand, has become a ticking time bomb for the paying customers and that's totally unacceptable for fans to be at such high risk.

Debris made it to the grandstand walkway in the North Vista, which of course wasn't occupied on this private test day. Track officials are denying that any major pieces made it through the fence.

As for the 1.5-mile and 2-mile ovals, where the cars are packed together at more than 215 mph, the big fear is that contact like Brack and Tomas Scheckter had at Texas will catapult a car over the fence and into the crowd.

Sanctioning bodies, engineers, manufacturers and Firestone/Bridgestone need to react immediately for the sake of everyone concerned with open wheel racing on ovals.

The fans cannot be in the line of fire like they are now and it's only going to take one catastrophe, like 1955 when a car cartwheeled into the crowd at Le Mans and killed 83, to shut everything down.

After the Le Mans catastrophe -- where driver Pierre Levegh also died after catapulting into the fans -- the Swiss government was so horrified by what happened in France that it banned auto racing completely, and there has not been a Switzerland Grand Prix held in that country since.

In the immediate aftermath of the Le Mans disaster, the governments of France, Mexico, Spain and Switzerland banned auto racing. But eventually all the governments, except for Switzerland, lifted the bans. In France, some Swiss events have found refuge, including the running of the 1982 Swiss G.P. at the Circuit de Dijon-Prenois, about 10 miles outside of Dijon.

If fans were killed on a similar scale in the U.S., it wouldn't take the government to step in and shut things down -- insurance companies would take care of that. If you had a calamity like Le Mans here, between lawsuits and the inability to obtain liability insurance in the future, the facility would effectively be closed.

Some IRL officials act like any criticism directed toward them is unfounded, despite the fact their series has seen 77 drivers suffer significant injuries -- including two fatalities -- in an 87-race span since 1996. But their arrogance can't blind the view and what they should have seen this season is way too many near disasters and now, a fatality.

[evo]

In that article he says the show would be just as good if they were 40mph slower at Indy. That's around 190mph. Wouldn't that be an IPS race?

[Jay]

Yeah, and they're not much safer...

[Snrub]

No. Speed in itself is not what makes it difficult or entertaining. Lower the grip and the HP at the same time, in similar amounts. (although IRL needs to lower the grip more than the HP)

[evo]

So slowing the cars down isn't nessecarily the solution.

[IndyPitPass]

Here is my reply to (RM's) banter.

http://www.indypitpass.com/bb2/viewtopic.php?p=606#606


[edit]In case you've forgotten our forum rules, check out the opening post in this "hot-thread" re: circumventing the auto-censor.
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...threadid=44803

[/edit]

[Teretonga]

I'm sorry but this reply is exactly what Miller was talking about when he indicated you can't sit on your hands and do nothing. I'm not a Miller fan but his predictions about the implications of a major multiple tragedy are 100% accurate for all forms of paved oval racing. It won't just affect Indy, it will affect NASCAR, USAC etc. If you sit and do nothing, taking no responsibility for the prevention of such accidents the effects will be all the more devasting for oval racing. Pull your head out of the sand and get real.

[Dov]

Well said, Teretonga!

[marcus]

EASY PEOPLE LETS NOT GET INTO AN ARGUMENT , THIS THREAD WILL REMAIN OPEN AS LONG AS IT PRODUCES GOOD DEBATE BUT AS SOON AS IT STARTS TO DEGRADE INTO AN ARGUMENT I WILL HAVE NO OPTION TO SHUT IT DOWN.

[Fogelhund]

Tony's death is a terrible tragedy, a loss for many.

I hate to sound crass, but we as auto racing fans got lucky this time. We got lucky that this happened during a test session. Had this type of incident happened on race day, our sport would be in danger of major changes.

Apparently the car would have hit where the handicapped viewing section was. There is some disagreement to how much debris landed in the stands. Whether it be gearbox and major parts, or the minor parts, it still had the potentail for at minimum injury.

I agree that racing drivers understand that they are taking a risk, and while unfortunate when they are taken from us, it is part of their profession. Of course, all reasonable means should be looked at in order to protect the safety of drivers where possible. I certainly hope that people are looking into safety on an ongoing basis in all types of racing, and particularly when it appears as though there may be some issues.

I don't believe it is an acceptable that fans be put at such a risk. Three cars have been launched this year, and luckily there haven't been fan injuries. Something does need to be looked at to prevent cars from going into the stands, to preserve Oval Racing as an American heritage, and to preserve Auto Racing on a whole.

Jackie Stewart was a great champion of safety for F1, in an era with a terrible safety record. Hopefully someone, or some group comes forth now, so that we aren't having such discussions again, or less often about injuries.

[gaines]

EASY PEOPLE LETS NOT GET INTO AN ARGUMENT , THIS THREAD WILL REMAIN OPEN AS LONG AS IT PRODUCES GOOD DEBATE BUT AS SOON AS IT STARTS TO DEGRADE INTO AN ARGUMENT I WILL HAVE NO OPTION TO SHUT IT DOWN.

Remember Marcus, the line between good discussion and argument is very fine. When two groups don't agree and are so passionate about it the discussion will get heated. As long as it is informative, valid and not reduced to petty insults I think it's rather healthy. This is a very valid discussion. The cat fight between CART and the IRL is ending and we're all starting to watch both series now. We all want to know what is going on with all these horrifying wrecks and how we remedy the situation. We all have different views and the only way to sort it all out is discussion. As long as we act civilized I say let them debate.

With that in mind, fellows, act like adults.

[marcus]

exactly my point gaines.

so far so good so there isnt a problem