Mallory Park

[Total-F1]

Was anyone there today? I was really disappointed it got cancelled early, but does anyone know how the driver is?

[Lee Purnell]

I waas not there, but could yopu give us more info?

[Chris Y]

Yes please tell.. I know there were Stock and Hot Hatches, and also the Locosts. If my car was a bit better, I would normally be running with the Hot Hatches..

If there was a big accident - I'm betting it involved a Stock Hatch?

[Tony Harman]

Hi Guys
I'm not sure if this information is accurate as yet but I believe sadly the driver involved has died.
I think it was a yellow and black flag infringement in the Caterham race. Will probably recieve a full report tomorrow.
In my persoanal opinion the yellow blag quatered flag should be dropped as it has been by the BARC.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by Tony Harman

I think it was a yellow and black flag infringement in the Caterham race. Will probably recieve a full report tomorrow.
In my persoanal opinion the yellow blag quatered flag should be dropped as it has been by the BARC.

Have the BARC banned it? I didn't know. Any more news about this?

[Tony Harman]

Hi Peter, I was told last night that the BARC have "dropped" the use of the yellow / black quatered flag because of too many dangerous situations arising. They will either stop a race with Red flags or neutrlaise with a pace car if necessary. Although the Y/Bqtr flag has been around a few years now people just seem to ignore it and carry on racing. From what I know of the Mallory incident the only person who slowed was the race leader.

[Dan Friel]

Nic Fairman was killed as he tried to avoid another incident which occurred at the start line due to the black / yellow flag being deployed. No other details than that so far.

A tragic incident, and it's about time that the drivers and officals in this country get it's use sorted out. Because generally I've been appalled at the events I've been to with some drivers disreagrding it completely and some officals not deploying or retracting the flags at the correct time manner.. It should work, but hasn't done so far and if a driver has lost his life because of this.. well its just dreadful.

[Peter Mallett]

For the uninitiated.

The sole reason for the Black/Yellow flag was to ensure that organising clubs would not lose money due to cancelled races. It is displayed as a replacement for a safety car and it means that the lead driver has to slow down to a safe pace and he becomes the "safety car".

This means that a race can continue to the end thereby obviating excessive delays and allowing the organisers to keep to a programme.

I find this tragic occurrence particularly sad because essentially the driver died because the organisers wanted to keep their profits.

[Marshal]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett


I find this tragic occurrence particularly sad because essentially the driver died because the organisers wanted to keep their profits.

Another way of looking at it is he died due to fellow competitors not observing and/or heeding the signals shown by officials.

The system should work, and should stop many unnecessary race stoppages. I agree with Dan that its not always well used by officials, but competitors have to shoulder up for some of the blame too.

[Tony Harman]

I have to agree with Marshal on this, there is no blame for something like this but it is the competitors responsibility to observe the flags in all cases. However in the case of the Black / Yellow the race leader is supposed to slow down first, the rest of the pack isn't supposed to slow until it reaches the race leader, effectively the same as a pace car. Also was the Black / Yellow only shown at the start line ?

Originally posted by Peter Mallett

I find this tragic occurrence particularly sad because essentially the driver died because the organisers wanted to keep their profits.

I'm not sure I agree Pete, we're talking about the 750 M/C here and I know the CofC's. Of all the clubs I think the 750M/C puts the competitor before profits. That is only looked at after the event.

I don't think the flag works, it has been around a while and always seems to promote contoversy when used, this sad inccident will certainly highlight the situation and a decision has to be made. I think we should use pace cars if necessary, I can't see there is extra cost in that.

[Marshal]

You're right Tony, blame is an entirely innappropriate word to use in this situation, I really should know better.

As for a pace car, the three things you need are,

A car
Some lights and stickers to identify it
A driver with the appropriate racing licence to drive it

So there shouldn't be much cost there, but I wonder if it would materially help, as I seem to recall some classes have run into each other when the pace car comes out, just as much as they have with the black and yellows.

[Tony Harman]

'course the the other answer - and probably the best - is signal lights all round the circuit, then everybody gets to see them and slow immediately - then form up the grid behind the leader before the restart. But that costs money - and I can't see Octagon forking out (no one else owns UK circuits now do they....)

[Marshal]

At the FIA GT meeting at Silverstone we did employ a "full course yellow" during the qualifying sessions, where a waved yellow was displayed at evey point and all drivers had to slow to "around 50 mph", while there were double yellows at the scene of the incident. Unfortunately for this to work you need a radio at each flag point, which comes back to Tony's point about investment.

[Tony Harman]

You mean you guys don't have any radios !!! - how are you supposed to communicate with Race Control - Semaphore with Oil flags !
I always new you were a great bunch but working under those conditions isn't on - blimey you've got enough problems with us lot!

[Dan Friel]

Usually work ok just with telephones - that's if the rabbits haven't eaten through the line..

I have nop problem with the system of flags, if it's done properly and everyone knows what's going on.. they shouldn't be used where a race stop is appropriate, but only where it's possibe to shift a car within the space of a couple of laps and the race can get going again quickly (and the race can get extra laps to make up for the laps lost). I've certainly worked on the track under such conditions and have felt protected and hence the incident was quickly dealt with.. that's how it should be done.

But I've seen the confusion when it's not done properly, and in the case of this tragic caterham race - it creates a more dangerous situation.

[Peter Mallett]

Well, I still maintain my point about the origination of the system. Its the circuits that charge the clubs for the day, irrespective of races run. And if you don't complete a third of the race distance (I think) the club has to pay some money back to the competitor. We've had some races run for 60 to eighty percent of their distance under these flags.

However Marshal raised a valid point and particularly in this case. How can "an incident" occur on the start line if all the cars are travelling slowly? Were they playing catch up and going too fast? If they were racing then was the flag displayed all around the circuit? Visibility at Mallory is pretty good so I wouldn't buy an "I saw no flags" excuse.

[Marshal]

Originally posted by Tony Harman
You mean you guys don't have any radios !!! - how are you supposed to communicate with Race Control - Semaphore with Oil flags !
I always new you were a great bunch but working under those conditions isn't on - blimey you've got enough problems with us lot!

As Dan said the observers points have phones, but at most circuits at least some of the flag points aren't at the same position as the observers points, so for the full course yellow system to work then all the flag points would need a radio or a phone too.

[Tony Harman]

Although nothing official has been released yet it would seem that this incident may not have occured as a result of the Yellow / Blacks coming out.
I have only encountered these flags once at Brands a couple of years ago, the Y/B was only shown at the start line, elsewhere there were yellows. Dan / Marshal - do all posts have the Yellow / Black flag ?, what is the normal sequence of events ?

[Marshal]

The y/b flag is displayed first at the startline, and then at all the points round the circuit, when the period is over a green is waved at the startline end then displayed at all the points round the circuit, travelling in the direction of traffic. So yes, every post should have its own black and yellow (they're bloody huge too!).

[Peter Mallett]

So,

Was this incident the cause of the Y/B flag period?

[Flagman]

The way it is supposed to work is as follows.

The BY is shown to the leader at the start finish line.
The leader slows down to 'about 50mph'and acts as a pace car - as the rest of the cars reach reach the back of the train they are supposed to maintain station behind the train.
The BY is shown at each flag point around the circuit in the direction of travel - i.e. it should be propogated round the circuit ahead of the lead car.

Once the obstruction is cleared the BY is withdrawn at the start line and a green flag is waved, the withdrawal of the BY is propogated round the circuit ahead of the cars.

The objective is to get the cars all lined up in a single pack travelling at a slow enough pace to give the marshals time to clear the incident.

It should work exactly the same as a safety car but has a few advantages.

It is cheaper - doesn't need a car/lights and licensed driver and experienced on-board observer - some small (and not so small!) meetings struggle to man the circuit without additional manpower impositions.

Safety cars have been known to break down...

The safety car has to join the track at an appropriate point - normally the pit lane exit - this can be a problem at certain circuits where the pit exit is a distance away from the start line - with the result that they miss the leading car.

Both methods suffer from the same problem - when, as the BY/Safety car first comes out, the leader slows on seeing the flag/car but the pack behind hasn't reached the start-line and hence hasnt seen any flags/lights etc.

As for full course yellows -
Phones will not work - one or two people in race control cannot communicate simultainiously with 20 plus flag points.

Radios - great but can get interferance - Towcester Taxis are a favourite at Silverstone...

Lights - Can have problems - have known lights at Donington to come on by themselves - or not work when required.

Most of time the BY seems to work but it does rely in the competitors commonsence and co-operation - not always in evidence when the adrenalin is flowing.

[Tony Harman]

Not sure - there seem to be a number of stories circulating at the moment, the person I know who was there cannot say anything as they were offciating at the meeting.

Marshal - seems t me that full course yellows would have the same effect - No ?

[Tony Harman]

Interesting - Flagman's post and mine crossed over in mid - flow
Yep you're absolutley right on how it should work and it really is down to the drivers to make it work properly.
The problem I've seen with it are two fold.
1) The way it should work - When the leader slows down the other cars don't and are still travelling at racing speed which can be dangerous when they arrive at an incident although no doubt there would be waved yellows.
2) What seems to happen - when I've seen it used is that not only the leader slows down but some other drivers do too so you end up with groups which means it can take ages to get the desired single train - often that is not achieved, which reduces the desired effect.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by Flagman

Most of time the BY seems to work but it does rely in the competitors commonsence and co-operation - not always in evidence when the adrenalin is flowing.

Not sure about BY but you have a point about yellows. I generally make a big effort to slow as soon as I see one but I often notice how fast my opposition pulls away whilst passing the incident.

[Marshal]

Which leads us neatly back to why something is required to slow the whole field down so cars can be moved from dangerous positions quickly and safely.