Bishop on Montoya

[Led ZeppF1]

Just read that F1 Racing's Editor Matt Bishop launch 'harsh' word on Montoya.

He considers Montoya to be the 8th best driver of 2003, behind Ralf, and that everyone hates him at Williams.:confused:

"JPM was a serious morale-douser for Williams in 2003, which is one reason why most Williams engineers will be glad to see the back of him," he said.

http://www.itv-f1.com/bishop/bishop_story/19240

[Testure]

Is there anything surprising in there? I don't think so. We've heard about the shouting match he had over the radio (with Sam Michael I think?) last year. We've heard that he just doesn't work as hard as some other drivers. And I totally agree that his last few races of last season were, frankly, rotten. It was somehow being billed as "driving for points", when, in reality, he gave up on races that he should have won! Monza - what a depressing race.

His decision to move to McLaren because he thinks Ralf is being favoured is crazy and I think he's going to be in for a nasty shock when he's up against Kimi next year. From the Champ Car footage I've seen of him, he was/is a breath-takingly exciting driver, but he hasn't got the hang of F1 at all.

[DriverT]

Testure, I think that's just a little harsh. I'm not the biggest Montoya fan, but to suggest he hasn't got the hang of F1 is, I think, lacking insight.

True he has thrown away races because he's tried to be spectacular, but I don't think he'll be blown away by Kimi. I think Kimi will just edge it.

[Mattracer]

This is one intra team battle getting front row seats for.

And if the McLaren is a great car, then it wll be that much better again to watch. Bring it all on I say!

[Gt_R]

Reading the whole article, i think Matt is being quite honest in his assessment there.

And i agree with this line particularly "No-one doubts JPM's talent or even his ability sometimes to do something so special that it lights up an entire grand prix, but it happened too rarely last season"

[Testure]

No, I don't think he'll be blown away by Kimi either
I guess I just think that, for someone that seems so incredibly talented, he's treading water. When I say he hasn't got the hang of F1, I don't mean the driving, I mean the whole deal - fitness training, setup skills, technical knowledge, relationships with mechanics, engineers, etc. Most of the drivers are so good these days that this is what really separates them. JPM has a lot more racing experience than some of the other drivers in F1, so I think he should be doing better than he is.

[jj2728]

i've said this before......montoya reminds me of another south american.....carlos reuttemann......blindingly fast and un-catchable on a good day....but when the chance for victory wasn't there or the moon wasn't in the right phase then he was lackluster at best....

[Gt_R]

It'd be real sad if JPM ends his F1 career without any WDC. He IS WDC stuff...

Unfortunately for him, nobody have a "exclusive right" to WDCs, and Kimi/Alonso/Webber are all great potentials.. JPM needs to fight for it and can't expect things to fall to him.

JPM's a tough character, he'd come out stronger... as long as he work on exploiting his potentials to the fullest, he can be pretty much unstoppable.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Testure
And I totally agree that his last few races of last season were, frankly, rotten.

Monza and USA weren't his best races in F1 i must admit. Monza, though, he did exactly what Michael did at Silverstone in 2001, something Michael wasn't critisized for and USA, was in hindsight, a silly move on Rubens, but a move he felt, he had to make as Kimi and Michael were getting away from him.

His last race of 2003, wasn't a rotten showing though, and he proberbly would have won had it not been for a mechanical failure.

Originally posted by Testure

His decision to move to McLaren because he thinks Ralf is being favoured is crazy

Looking at the reported wage difference, i'd say that Williams (or BMW at least) do favour Rafe.

Originally posted by Testure
but he hasn't got the hang of F1 at all.

3 wins, 11 poles, 10 fastest laps, 20 podiums, 29 points scoring positions, 163 points.

If thats not getting the hang of F1 i don't know what is

Originally posted by Led ZeppF1
Just read that F1 Racing's Editor Matt Bishop launch 'harsh' word on Montoya.

He considers Montoya to be the 8th best driver of 2003, behind Ralf, and that everyone hates him at Williams.:confused:

I read F1Racing magazine every month, but i have found that the so called "experts" do change their mind very frequently.

Here Matt Bishop is, "dissing Montoya", but in an interview with him, or an "exclusive" as they like to call it, he'll blow sunshine up Montoya's (or any driver thats in the "exclusive") backside. Its all about selling more copies imo.

If Montoya finishes any lower than 4th in the WDC, then i will agree with the bloke.

Originally posted by Led ZeppF1


"JPM was a serious morale-douser for Williams in 2003, which is one reason why most Williams engineers will be glad to see the back of him," he said.

Funny how only 2 years ago, Montoya was the golden boy of Williams, everyone loved him and didn't like Rafe (reportedly) :confused:

France 2003 doesn't seem like a good episode for Montoya and the Williams team, but it must be remembered that the team switched Rafes (first) pitstop, and brought him in when the should have brought in JPM, then the 2 subsequent pitstops were slower for JPM than they were for Rafe.

However, this is the one area that JPM must improve imo. He should have sat on Rafes rear wing and forced him into a mistake. The trouble is of course, had his sitting on Rafe's rear wing forced the German to go off, JPM would proberbly have copped the blame had it cost the team points.

[Peter Mallett]

I generally agree with what he says. I also ranked RS above JPM in Mr V's top ten thread in November (?).

But where I think the article loses its way is in two areas.

Firstly how does he know that "most Williams engineers will be glad to see the back of" JPM? and;

Next the Rosberg at McLaren story forgets that Keke signed on for a one year deal because he was retirng. Macaroon wanted an established hard racer to back up Alain before the arrival of Senna. Ergo both parties knew the score and Keke put in some good races nearly winning in Australia until his tyre let go and gave Prost the warning.

[Testure]

Originally posted by Mr V

Looking at the reported wage difference, i'd say that Williams (or BMW at least) do favour Rafe.

I keep remembering what Villeneuve said about his salary - that it was like a game and to win the game you get the highest salary. There are uncountably many reasons as to why Ralf gets paid more than Juan-Pablo. The fact that this bugs him makes me fear that he's trying to play the same stupid game as Jacques did. Worse - I guarantee that he's going to be paid less than Kimi at McLaren. If he thinks Williams favour Ralf, how's he going to cope with the Ron Dennis/Kimi Räikkönen relationship?

[Testure]

And where did this "Rafe" thing come from?! Stop calling him Rafe! It's Ralf! R-A-L-F. Ralf!

[Mr V]

I must admit, that the McLaren/Kimi thing is something i've thought about too. (Even started a thread about iirc).

However, his contract with McLaren (if it's been correctly reported) does go upto a maximum of $18mill per season, although, admittedly, thats a few seasons off, and providing that JPM and McLaren stay together.

BTW, i've referred to Rafe as, errr....Rafe, since joing this forum, it's nothing that has only recently cropped up. Much like called Michael TGF, or Button - Bunsen, (as he seems to be refered to now and again )

[BootsOntheSide]

Leaving Williams may prove to be the making of Montoya. It'll put him in a team where he's clearly wanted and valued, and will know that he is, and with a very fast and capable team-mate to compare himself against. It does depend on how he can perofrm compared to Kimi, and it'll be hard for him to establish status at McLaren if Kimi wins the title this year.

The pay difference isn't the only reason Juan felt under-appreciated at Williams. The situation in France advantaged Ralf in every way, despite the qualifying speed difference being minor, Montoya looking a little faster (and much racier) on raceday, and the team being well clear of eveyrone else - times where a team like Williams usually lets its drivers battle it out on equal terms.

The USA race was his worst showing of 2003, a real disappointment to me, but Japan was an impressive display which deserved to win him the race. As for Monza, I bet you'd all have criticised him more if he'd've made a bold but slightly rash move for the lead, spun, and finished 10 seconds behind?

[Gt_R]

personally, i would still rank JPM above Ralf...

However, there are some points which i believe we ought to balance out.

(1)Looking at the reported wage difference, i'd say that Williams (or BMW at least) do favour Rafe.
>> It's kind of ridiculous that William's favour Ralf just because of higher wage. Remember that when Ralf negotiated THAT contract, Williams see it fit to pay him that amount irregardless of JPM. Furthermore, JPM -when he signed his F1 contract-wasn't a proven F1 quality and hence to immediately demand a pay higher than Ralf is not feasible. And lastly, it is JPM's agent's fault for not negotiating a better contract (perhaps performance-linked?). In any case for him/his fans/or his agent to blame Ralf's higher wage for his departure and unhappiness is really pointless.

(2)3 wins, 11 poles, 10 fastest laps, 20 podiums, 29 points scoring positions, 163 points.
>>Decent and good results for anybody, but considering all the hypes his fans come up with, and the immense talent he possess, this surely isn't what we expected? Yes he got the hang of F1, but is that the most he can show? We are disappointed because he can be, and probably is, so much better than his results suggest.

(3)Funny how only 2 years ago, Montoya was the golden boy of Williams, everyone loved him and didn't like Rafe
>> Indeed...then why the insecurity? If i was JPM, i'd be more than feel safe in my position at Williams, knowing that you had a less than par team-mate and a great team/engine at your feet...but no..he let his paranoia get the better of him. And this is the root of the problem that made him less than great to work with.


(4)when they should have brought in JPM, then the 2 subsequent pitstops were slower for JPM than they were for Rafe
>>Does that mean you are blaming the team for a slower stop and losing JPM's win? Pardon me, but i'm 100% sure they didn't plan for a slower stop for JPM.

It seems like JPM-fans can't accept the fact that Ralf, for once, beat JPM straight in a fight at France and to suggest other team-related reasons to excuse it is strange.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Gt_R
Remember that when Ralf negotiated THAT contract, Williams see it fit to pay him that amount irregardless of JPM.

I believe that Willi Weber negotiated that contract I think its also fair to say that BMW wanted a German driver in the team and were prepared to stump up some of the money themselves. Now that Williams and BMW have a contract until 2009, i believe that Rafes (and WW's) excessive wage demands will see Rafe out of the Williams drive in 2005.

Originally posted by Gt_R
this surely isn't what we expected?

I must admit, i too was hoping for more, the fact that Ferrari have produced the best cars over the last 3 season (admittedly, they dropped the ball abit in 03) went against Montoya and the others. Don't forget that Ferrari won 32 of the 49 races in the last 3 seasons, (70 odd %)

Originally posted by Gt_R
And this is the root of the problem that made him less than great to work with.

Other than Matt Bishop, who has said that he's less than great to work with? I've never heard members of the Williams team come out and say this.

Originally posted by Gt_R
Does that mean you are blaming the team for a slower stop and losing JPM's win? Pardon me, but i'm 100% sure they didn't plan for a slower stop for JPM.

I'm not saying that i blame the team for the losing JPM that win, but the fact remains that Williams as a team changed Rafes stratergy, bringing him in when JPM was meant to be coming in (i believe that this was what lead to the arguements) then everytime JPM closed the gap, his stop was slower than Rafes, thats a fact, not an excuse, watch the race again.

Originally posted by Gt_R
It seems like JPM-fans can't accept the fact that Ralf, for once, beat JPM straight in a fight at France

I believe i covered this when i said the following........

Originally posted by Mr V

However, this is the one area that JPM must improve imo. He should have sat on Rafes rear wing and forced him into a mistake. The trouble is of course, had his sitting on Rafe's rear wing forced the German to go off, JPM would proberbly have copped the blame had it cost the team points.

[Kicking-back]

I think Ron Dennis and McLaren's approach will always get more out of a "tempremental" driver than the way Frank and Patrick do things does.

[Damon]

They coped alright with Senna and even JPM is not so tightly wound as him. The McLaren environment is very different to that at Williams and I feel it'll suit JPM more. Ron prefers to nurture his drivers whereas FW an PH see them as expendable employees.

As for the article, Bishop's just trying to stir cause controvesy. The very fact that we are discussing it shows that he has succeeded. The FACTS simply don't bare out what he's saying.

[Kicking-back]

Ron actually once won an award from the Institute of Personell Directors for his man-management - he seems like a good man to work for.

Of course Bishop's trying to stir controversy - but things would be very dull if we all agreed with each other all the time.

Good on him!

[Redblurr]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
...
Firstly how does he know that "most Williams engineers will be glad to see the back of" JPM? ...

Head:"Verbally abusing the team continuously on the radio we didn't think was appropriate when the guys had worked their nuts off on the car and done some fantastic pitstops," Head added. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/moto...ne/3483989.stm

Might have something to do with it

[Raven]

Bishop has always played down JPM's achievements. Ralf, Kimi and Fisichella are his favourite drivers.

The Williams crew might be pleased to see the back of JPM, but the feeling is more than mutual since JPM was the one to sign with another team a year and a half before his contract was up.

[Speed]

Originally posted by Mr V
3 wins, 11 poles, 10 fastest laps, 20 podiums, 29 points scoring positions, 163 points.

If thats not getting the hang of F1 i don't know what is

And don´t forget V..., he is the fastest guy in F1 (ever) !!! (Monza 2002)

[Gt_R]

"I believe that Willi Weber negotiated that contract"

You win...WW negotiated THAT contract can't blame him when his salary's at stake

"Ron actually once won an award from the Institute of Personell Directors for his man-management - he seems like a good man to work for."

yeah, that's the impression i had. He may be giving his rivals a hard time, but to his own people he is very protective and supportive, and a huge quality which i must admit i admire.

"I must admit, i too was hoping for more, the fact that Ferrari have produced the best cars over the last 3 season"

Ferrari may have produced a "better car" but last year, it's pretty obvious that Williams, over a season, had a better car/tyre/engine package.

IMO, i agree with Matt, not in a negative way,...just that at the end of the day, i'd still put JPM ahead of Ralf.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Gt_R


Ferrari may have produced a "better car" but last year, it's pretty obvious that Williams, over a season, had a better car/tyre/engine package.

mmm, over a season? What about the first 5 or so races? Williams didn't really get their act together until Monaco time. Before Monaco JPM trailed Kimi by 25 points and Michael by 23. (Rafe was 20 points behind Kimi, 18 behind Michael) doesn't sound like that counts towards a better package

[Led ZeppF1]

Originally posted by Redblurr http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/moto...ne/3483989.stm

Might have something to do with it

[/B]

But, I wonder, if "most Williams engineers will be glad to see the back of" JPM?, why the Team (read: Sir Frank dan Patrick Head) keep Montoya for 2005 and not let him go to McLaren early?:confused: