Oi! or Marshal communications

[Stoowert]

At risk of boring everyone - again. I'm curious to know how the forum feels about the seemingly never-ending discussion as to the best form of communication at race tracks.

Here goes nothing anyway...

[thebear]

Originally Posted by Stoowert

At risk of boring everyone - again. I'm curious to know how the forum feels about the seemingly never-ending discussion as to the best form of communication at race tracks.

Here goes nothing anyway...

I picked radio but with the disclaimer that a backup channel be available, PL codes and repeaters be deployed as well. Earmuff style headsets are a given.

[JimW]

Could not vote as I would have to tick all three.

Horses for courses and all that.

Jim

[archaic gold]

Radio has the edge, as totally flexible. Race Control can even get you if you are at lunch (!!!!) at the Grand Prix Terrace (Brands Hatch for our Northern Brethren). However, limitations are the number of users on the one channel, and security! (ie: Team Managers with scanners!!)

[Matthews Dad]

Originally Posted by archaic gold

Radio has the edge, However, limitations are the number of users on the one channel, and security! (ie: Team Managers with scanners!!)

Not just team managers but public in spectators encolsures etc with scanners who can and do react to incidents and crowd round the scene and discuss calls made Certainly have heard radio users being told not to discuss certain items over the airwaves but to visit race control after the event or "submit written report"

But for mobiles such as resue units etc radios are a must!

[archaic gold]

But for mobiles such as resue units etc radios are a must![/QUOTE]

Agreed: Rescue Units can only operate by radio!
I mentioned Team Managers rather than the General Public as they can get the first inkling of a disciplinary hearing!!!

[robert77]

Radio over anything else but with second channel or telephone as backup/second line if more serious transmission.

[Asp]

Radio with telephones - use the phone for things that need to be secure, and things that don't require everyone to hear (eg. Spin & continued, contact). Announcements to all users can be made over the radio, you can always be reached on the radio so you're not tied to one place, and you can use it for urgent requests (give the Rescue Unit extra warning to put down the doughnut before being scrambled ) and things that is beneficial for everything to hear (eg. bits hanging off cars or leakages)..
In other words, none of the above!

[Woolley]

You can do all that on a landline, with the added advantages of it can't be picked up by scanners and someone can still call an emergency and get through while 'domestic' conversation is going on.

The general argument against landlines is the cable, but in my experience, it's usually long enough to travel a fair distance from the post - certainly a lot further than most observers travel! You can also use it quite comfortably while flagging. And if you want radio with telephones, then you need to stay by the telephone anyway.

Having experienced all three I have no qualms in recommending the landline system to anyone who hasn't tried it, and if you haven't, I'll guarantee the majority of you will be surprised when you do.

[Sheila M]

Originally Posted by Woolley

You can do all that on a landline, with the added advantages of it can't be picked up by scanners and someone can still call an emergency and get through while 'domestic' conversation is going on.

The general argument against landlines is the cable, but in my experience, it's usually long enough to travel a fair distance from the post - certainly a lot further than most observers travel! You can also use it quite comfortably while flagging. And if you want radio with telephones, then you need to stay by the telephone anyway.

Having experienced all three I have no qualms in recommending the landline system to anyone who hasn't tried it, and if you haven't, I'll guarantee the majority of you will be surprised when you do.

I'd love a landline in the pit lane. There are times when I'm in a red flag situation with a rescue unit having being called to an incident when teams come up and ask for information about something important to them but I can't ask about because of the radio silence. A telephone would be so helpful in these circumstances.

Radio is wonderful because (if listened to correctly) you can keep things moving - case in point was today. We had cars in the assembly area with engines switched off due to a delay but by paying attention to what the recovery crews and everyone else were saying I'd got the cars fired up and ready to leave when race control wanted it.

[PVDA]

I voted Radio.

You need to be careful what you say & Medical condition codes exist to give "upstairs" an idea of what's going on on the ground without discussing who and exactly what is going on.

If something sensitive needs to be passed on I use SMS or mobile phone calls to pass it on to the man in RC.

It could be as simple as sending an SMS suggesting a solution to something that might be about to pop up without letting everyone know about it.

Down here in Australia ALL collision reports are done in writting anyway so you only need to give a quick basic report on the incident and then let your pen do the talking.

There should always be a separate channel for emergency personel, another for admin & pit lane stuff and a third for the marshal posts to use.

EDIT: to add need for more than one channel.

[Asp]

Originally Posted by Woolley

The general argument against landlines is the cable, but in my experience, it's usually long enough to travel a fair distance from the post - certainly a lot further than most observers travel! You can also use it quite comfortably while flagging.

That is one of the two reason I said radio over landline - although the cable is long, it doesn't allow an IO to observe if there's a lack of trained observer on post. I know generally in such a situtation the flaggie observes, but the IO is willing s/he can make reports without the flagging suffering - the key difference is in the event of an incident the IO makes the decisions as to what's needed and radios it in instead of gesticulating back to the box. Obviously there you do need the complete flexibility of radio.
Secondly, because some people (eg. Rescue Units) will still be on radio, there's the advantage of keeping everyone in the same information loop.

[DaveW]

Whilst all have merits, I'm amused by the talk about length of cable usually being sufficient - I can think of one post at Snetterton where the cable length is so short that its a struggle to stand upright!

Overall, I think I prefer radio - providing those at either end are disciplined enough to use if correctly.

[Stephen Green]

If they were in constant use at every circuit then radio discipline would come very quickly, you only have to look at Silverstone to see that. I always prefer to use radios over telephones for several reasons:

1. With the shortage of marshals younever know when, as an Observer, you will need to lend a hand to the Course/Fire marshals. If you are using land lines then you forced to remain in, or very close to, the Observers hut.

2. When making reports to Race Control it is always easier to make yourself hear, and be heard, when using radios as opposed to telephones.

[archaic gold]

There is a worrying undercurrent of observations if you read through the 'posts' on this thread!
IOs/Flag Marshals "when they are also being Observers" having problems with communications!
Ever Stuarts open 'landline' would have a problem if the IO was acting as the Observer on Post, and had to attend an incident 100 yards away, and Steve helping out an Incident because of the shortage of Incident/Course Marshals..
Therefore, under ideal conditions (full manning) we can discuss all three forms of communication, but under the present scenario, it has to be Radios! (Sorry, Stuart!)

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by PVDA

You need to be careful what you say & Medical condition codes exist to give "upstairs" an idea of what's going on on the ground without discussing who and exactly what is going on.

We were discussing this at a bike meeting on Saturday, where all communication is doen by radio. 'Kilo' codes are used to inform race control of riders' condition, in the mistaken belief that the punters with scanners won't know the codes. This raised the question whether we actually need to inform RC of the exact nature of the injury; I'd say no. What RC need to know is what action is necessary - race stop, immediate medical attention, checkup after the race, etc. It's immaterial in making those decisions whether it's a broken leg, collarbone or whatever.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by JimW

Could not vote as I would have to tick all three.

Once again I agree with you - that's twice in the last three years!

[Stephen Green]

I agree with you on the kilo sodes Dave. All RC need from the Observer is; race stop, doctor required etc. Once the doctor is on scene he can communicate with RC via mobile telephone, thereby not giving anything away over the airwaves.

[archaic gold]

I agree with both of you! Once the decision is made for Medical Attendance, any further radio information.
Quite often Paramedics/Doctors can not diagnose condition, until the driver/rider is safely back in the Medical Centre. He can then telephone Race Control by normal landline.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by DaveW

Whilst all have merits, I'm amused by the talk about length of cable usually being sufficient - I can think of one post at Snetterton where the cable length is so short that its a struggle to stand upright!.

But that's a telephone, and it's the same problem everywhere. Landlines tend to come with tens of metres.

Interesting comment on I/Os observing, and wondering if that's how it should be? It's outside my experience, so this is an asking questions bit, not a criticism. If you're an I/O, you'll be at the scene and should be talking with your crew and the driver, not race control, and you'll have far from the best overall view. I'd have thought the flaggie was the best placed here, but not if he's got to use a telephone to ring up, wait, speak... The landline allows him to press a button and say a few short words without affecting his flagging. You can also give reports at the time, not have to remember for afterwards, because you can't really write notes when flagging. It also means you're not the only one who can speak, so someone with a more urgent situation can get in if necessary. If you're on a radio, it blocks other callers, and if you're on the telephone, the operator doesn't know if the new call is more urgent.

[archaic gold]

It's a mess, is n't it!!!!!!!

[racerkeke]

Stoowert, if there were more North Americans on this forum I bet you'd get more votes for landline. I've hardly ever had a problem with enough "string" on a landline -- just swap out the cord for a longer one. And in essence a landline IS a telephone. It's a party line. You just always have an open channel for listening.

Even the dreaded hum that lurks on every landline known to humankind won't sway my opinion. Having worked a radio in race control and on the course I hate the &^%$ things. Yeah, I put up with them but I don't have to like them. At Fontana in January we kept getting some taxi dispatch, and something that sounded like the Metrolink train guys (commuter train network that runs next to the backstretch). Because radio's "one person only", when we were being subjected to Metrolink or taxi, the world could have ended on turn three and nobody would have known. Luckily in Fontana Race Control can see pretty much the whole track. Yes, we tried switching frequencies. No go in a crowded radio environment...

keke

[archaic gold]

Racekerker, You are quoting a situation, I believe, where there is just one person sitting there reporting on a Race. Our problem is that one person can also be called upon to perform other duties because of 'short-manning', and well away from that Post! How long is your wire?? We held a CART round acouple of years ago at Brands Hatch, and we were over-endowed with Marshals and the land line worked; but at the average Clubbie!!!!!

[thebear]

Originally Posted by racerkeke

At Fontana in January we kept getting some taxi dispatch, and something that sounded like the Metrolink train guys (commuter train network that runs next to the backstretch). Because radio's "one person only", when we were being subjected to Metrolink or taxi, the world could have ended on turn three and nobody would have known. Luckily in Fontana Race Control can see pretty much the whole track. Yes, we tried switching frequencies. No go in a crowded radio environment...
keke

The answer to that is "PL" codes (private line) which I mentioned in my first reply. There are `sub-channels' on each frequency. If you are using a repeater, It will only respond to the correct sub-channel. Of course each of the radios in use must be set up the same way.

Many of the common 14 (FRS) & 22 (FRS/GMRS)channel walkie-talkies available have 38 sub-channels so that is no longer a problem.

[DaveW]

So does anyone know how many venues in the UK have landlines as well as/instead of telephones?