3-2-1 Boards. What's the point?

[JamieStewart9]

Having run and organised quite a few Car/Bike meetings over the years at Lydden Hill, Brands Hatch, Ales and now Mallory Park (I run Thundersport GB by the way), it has always struck me as odd that the Blue Book still has the 3 minute countdown for Clubman/National B events.
It's a complete waste of time and I have never yet seen it done in genuine time. Each board is shown pretty much as soon as the starter feels he can decently get away with it. The grid is already formed and everyone is ready to go, so why not dispense with the pretence that the cars are getting this countdown? Lip service to the rulebook is pointless, and let's face it, everyone concerned really just wants to get on with it.

Back in the early to mid-nineties when I was running BMCRC and Lydden Hill, I was priviliged to meet and get to known John Nicol. I was green as grass from an organisers perspective and he shared a lot of information with me, which was very helpful and I carefully noted it down and have made use of a lot of it ever since.
I wanted to make clubmans bike racing more professional and polished to add value and attract more competitors and sponsors. I liked the way that BRSCC did some things and realised that it helped them gain valuable club sponsorship, which in turn they could either use for profits, or to keep costs down for their competitors. (my view was always that the benefit should be 75% to the competitors & 25% to the club)

He liked the fact that I could safely and efficiently run 27 races in a single day at Brands Hatch and still not run out of time.

The 'Racing Ahead' initiative was designed to make an amalgamation of the two ways of running a meeting, using the good points from each one. Getting rid of this kind of stuff (3-2-1 boards) and simply getting on with providing cost effective, well organised car race meetings which made best use of very expensive track time was the essence of the project.

Racing Ahead was loosely based on motorcycle racing methods of getting the most out of a day at any given circuit. (I know some of you don't like bikes, but bear with me please)

After one of my chats with John I did a fairly in depth analysys of several meetings (bike meetings) and found to my horror, that over a two day event, I was only making use of 78% of my available track time. An examination of a couple of BRSCC events showed just 41% of the day was used for racing. We both thought it was crazy, as track time was priced at £33 per minute back then (Brands).

I set about changing that and I examined EVERYTHING we did. If I asked someone why we did a certain thing and the answer was:- "Because we always do that!" and there was no tangible benefit.....we stopped doing it!

A few things came back in, as when we stopped doing them it suddenly became apparant why we were doing them in the first place. But most things never came up again and we gained time and efficiency through looking at everything twice.

Long standing volunteers started coming to me with ideas about how to speed things up and theirs were some of the best savings we ever made. If you want to know how to do something, ask the bloke who's actually doing it.

This is even more relevant today, as circuit costs have spiralled. So what's happened to Racing Ahead and it's view of the future?

I know in order to make use of any track time you save, you need more competitors to enter more races. Otherwise you're just looking at an empty track, which brings me on to Value For Money.

I've looked at several car events in 2011, because having an office at Mallory Park makes it hard not to and my involvement in re-opening Donington Park from August 2010 to May 2011 kind of re-kindled my interest in cars a bit (I used to race them back in the early eighties).

The Entry fees and what you get for them are crazy. £365 for a qualifying session and 2 races was considered pretty good value........ and added up to average track time of less than an hour in total. £6.08 per minute.

My lads (and lasses) get 56 minutes per day. Qualifying session, 2 races Saturday, Warm Up and 2 races Sunday. Average cost £240 for the whole weekend, including TV coverage, grid girls etc. £2.14 per minute.

It doesn't compare well does it?

How many cars are sitting in garages unused because the cost of racing has become prohibitive?

I know the 750MC have always tried to promote the better value end of car racing and that might be why they are still healthy, but with a good look at the way meetings bleed away valuable track time and/or looking at ways of making use of that time to increase the quality of presentation, don't you think more cars would be on more grids, making the spectacle better for all concerned?

If you were a budding car racer and could have 4 races for the price of 2 races elsewhere, where would you be racing?

Just some food for thought and not intended to offend anyone. I really enjoyed working with the BARC on Boxing Day and when I spoke to Dave & Martin about some of this I could sense their frustration as they want to provide the best service possible.

regards

Dave

---------------------

BTW my running costs (overheads) are actually higher than any equivelent car event. 5 ambulances, 4 Doctors, 120 plus marshals breakfasts & lunches, £120,000 worth of TV per season etc etc.

[Andrew Busby]

Definitely food for thought; this subject is a perennial one and am sure there is room for improvements. I used to race in the Castle Combe saloons so got to know fairly well how they ran things there and the fact that they ALWAYS managed to run 10/11 races in the afternoon up to a curfew of 6pm. It was a slick operation and for the spectators it meant that there was hardly a gap between races. Interesting that Combe is one of the best attended circuit in the country - must be a link there.

Specifically on the subject of the countdown boards I tend to agree; once the grid is formed (and btw no need for green flag laps if not running on slicks) just need a 30 second board followed by 5 sec and then lights. Having said that, from a spectator point of view there maybe a case to hold for longer to allow some commentary prior to the start of the race.

And whilst talking about grids and the start procedure, slightly off topic but I've never understood why grids in club racing are formed so tightly. I believe the blue book states 8 meteres between rows but at some circuits this is more like 8 foot or less - and I'm sure is often the cause of startline accidents. No room and no line of sight. I mention this here as I believe it needs addressing from a safety perspective but would inevitably have an effect on the speed of forming a grid.

A topic worthy of discussion methinks......

[tim dodwell]

Andrew - totally agree with you about green flag laps being a waste of time - just drive round the track (commentary can take place then), and form up on the grid to go.
Also agree about the too close packing on the grids - definitely a recipe for accidents.

[Tim Falce]

I've never quite got the idea of the 3-2-1 minute boards especially as we have to wait for all the grid to form before they are shewn. A better idea (loosely happens now at some MGCC meetings) is to form the cars in grid order, side by side, in the assembly area then go straight to a warm up lap if needed then form on the grid and go after the 5 second board. This only falls down slightly when people are missing from the grid and the assembly marshals move people forward into empty spaces. I reckon this could save five minutes per race.

One other thing I see as wasting time is the downtime between races, even if there's nothing to clear up we still have someone in a car driving round making himself look important collecting reports, this could easily be done by radio or phone, we are after all in the 21st century.

[johngee]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

One other thing I see as wasting time is the downtime between races, even if there's nothing to clear up we still have someone in a car driving round making himself look important collecting reports, this could easily be done by radio or phone, we are after all in the 21st century.

I seem to remember having had this discusion before Tim . We DON'T drive around to look important and it's as much a waste of time to us as it appears to you. There are times when we don't do it (despite the regulatory requirement for us to ensure that the track is clear which predates the camera coverage that we enjoy today) but the judicial process requires that we use 'hard evidence' to justify some decisions and that needs written reports and diagrams to be collected from the marshal's posts - not a transcribed phone or radio message with all the possible dangers if misheard or misunderstood - you might be glad of that one day.

That all being said, I was interested to read Dave's and Andrew's views much of which I agree with. Like Dave, I was involved with John Nicol (probably the best Clerk of the Course this country ever produced) in the original BRSCC 'Racing Ahead' concept and there's still much the could be learned from that, if only the 'rule book' and the governing body would allow use of some of the 'short cuts' suggested.
Certainly I would pesonally always try and carry out the 3 - 2 - 1 board sequence during the warm up/grid formation period at a National grade meeting, ideally so that it's 'last row in position - 5 seconds - Go'. Trouble is that at an International meeting or races held outside the UK, the FIA require the full timed sequence.
The grid spacing of 8 metres distance quoted would surely put the back rows of the grid half way round the preceding corner at some circuits?

Happy New Year to all of you

[Al Weyman]

Totally agree with all the above, good follow up post Andrew.

[JamieStewart9]

Yes, I'm aware of the requirement for "Hard Evidence" in MSA meetings and I wasn't suggesting you got rid of it, just think about it differently.

At Brands Hatch, Lydden Hill, Snetterton, Mallory Park, Donington Park, Castle Combe, Pembrey, Croft, Cadwell Park, Anglesey, Aintree, Knockhill and Rockingham every post is reachable by scooter on the outside (with a bit of forethought) and there should be no need for routine 'rotation' of Rescue Units or Breakdown trucks unless there is some thing to pick up.

Think laterally and instead of thinking of the extra work and planning involved in making it happen, think of the benefits of getting 2 extra grids of cars on the programme, or giving everyone 2 championship races instead of one.

If you don't adapt, some clubs will die and then there will be less of everything for everyone. An example of 10 races in a day at Castle Combe being heralded as some kind of achievement, would be laughed at in bike racing as wildly inefficient. Racing Ahead was predominantly about less bureaucracy and more racing and I still think it has merit in the modern world (perhaps more so, given the costs of racing today).

Please don't think I'm knocking anyone, I have a lot of time for John and many of the other car officials I have worked with. It's the rigidity of the Blue Book that needs a 21st century makeover.

[midgetman]

As anyone can guess, I'm totally against the hullabaloo surrounding race meetings and the levels of on track bureaucracy (for want of a better word) it creates. How refreshing to read a post from someone with the insider knowledge that could create some real fresh ideas. Wonderful.

Re collecting written reports. Can't someone be sent round the spectator areas on a monkey bike while the next race is running? Or a push bike. Or on foot...

As John Ruston is fond of saying, we are only old blokes playing with cars...time to differentiate between the wannabes and the wanna-have-funs!

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by johngee

but the judicial process requires that we use 'hard evidence' to justify some decisions and that needs written reports and diagrams to be collected from the marshal's posts - not a transcribed phone or radio message with all the possible dangers if misheard or misunderstood - you might be glad of that one day.

I still feel there is room for change in the way reports are collected, we are in the 21st century and surely we could find some more efficient way than going round collecting scraps of paper by some bloke in a very expensive car.

Originally Posted by midgetman

As John Ruston is fond of saying, we are only old blokes playing with cars...time to differentiate between the wannabes and the wanna-have-funs!

Max, the problem is that you, me and JR may be old blokes playing with cars, the fact is to some of the old blokes and a lot of the young ones, racing is a matter of life and death and they will go to any lengths to win which can also come down to a scrap of paper collected by some bloke in a very expensive car. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

[johngee]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

I still feel there is room for change in the way reports are collected, we are in the 21st century and surely we could find some more efficient way than going round collecting scraps of paper by some bloke in a very expensive car.

Tim. This collection of reports is a total 'red herring'. It's normally done when the recovery of broken cars and the gridding up of the next race is taking place. .... and where did you get the obsession of 'very expensive cars' from?

We keep having similar discussions on here, which is very boring, since none of us has the power or authority to change very much. May I suggest that the most vociferous of you a) read all of the Blue Book b) a circuit contract c) the various HSA directives d) attend an MSA/FIA safety course e) attend an MSA tribunal f) attend a coronor's court after a fatal accident g) spend at least one whole day in race control and h) spend a day with an MSA Steward. Then, at least, you'd know what you're talking about (I exlude Dave, the original poster on this thread, who DOES know what he's talking about). THEN, get yourselves elected to the MSA Race Committee, where you just might be able to influence changes
I'm sorry if this offends anybody and that's not my intention but we just go round in, mostly ill informed, circles

....and if you think this sounds 'ill tempered' then trust me - I can 'out grumpy' John Ruston at times!

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by johngee

and where did you get the obsession of 'very expensive cars' from?

Well that M3 at Brands is far more expensive than my 16 year old Diesel Corsa, but being poor keeps me humble

Originally Posted by johngee

....and if you think this sounds 'ill tempered' then trust me - I can 'out grumpy' John Ruston at times!

Yeah, but you're still not as scary as that Claire woman

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by johngee

Tim. This collection of reports is a total 'red herring'. It's normally done when the recovery of broken cars and the gridding up of the next race is taking place. .... and where did you get the obsession of 'very expensive cars' from?

We keep having similar discussions on here, which is very boring, since none of us has the power or authority to change very much. May I suggest that the most vociferous of you a) read all of the Blue Book b) a circuit contract c) the various HSA directives d) attend an MSA/FIA safety course e) attend an MSA tribunal f) attend a coronor's court after a fatal accident g) spend at least one whole day in race control and h) spend a day with an MSA Steward. Then, at least, you'd know what you're talking about (I exlude Dave, the original poster on this thread, who DOES know what he's talking about). THEN, get yourselves elected to the MSA Race Committee, where you just might be able to influence changes
I'm sorry if this offends anybody and that's not my intention but we just go round in, mostly ill informed, circles

....and if you think this sounds 'ill tempered' then trust me - I can 'out grumpy' John Ruston at times!

You've forced me off the sofa on the last day of the Christmas break to open my 2012 copy of the Blue Book and I can't see any requirement for a 3 minute countdown in the start section - I'm not a Starter and I tend to leave the job of Starter to those more competant than I am but I can only see a requirement for a 30 second signal before a formation lap (for cars on slick tyres).

On the formation/non formation lap - as usual damned if you do and damned if you don't - I'm involved in a couple of series where the reg's stipulate no green flag laps as they are on road tyres and the drivers complain a significant amount about this. Whilst others complain about the cost of track time (whilst doing 4 minute formation laps around Brands Indy).

To me formation laps are the biggest waste of time, drivers who dawdle and weave around the whole circuit like they are on a F1 grid, wasting huge amounts of time...if you picked the pace up boys we'd all gain time.

[Dave Brand]

Interesting thread! My random thoughts, from the point of view of a Post Chief:

Number of races per day is something of a misleading measure, as I think it's true to say that, at club level, bike races tend to be shorter than car races. I think we have to be pragmatic here: downtime between races will always be longer for cars than for bikes, as more time is needed to clear up after a race.

Bike recoveries are much easier than cars - no matter how badly damaged a bike is two or three people can lift it into a van, which will also carry one or two more bikes. A badly damaged car will need a properly-equipped recovery vehicle & will take time to recover, although I have to say that this is something some circuits do better than others - I'm not impressed when the recovery truck driver asks me how to do the job! If a bike goes into a gravel trap it can easily be lifted out; in many cases cars have to be towed out.

Dealing with injured competitors is also much quicker for bikes, although probably more frequently required! In extreme cases car drivers have to be cut out, a time-consuming operation.

Barrier damage is another factor. Bikes seldom, I think, cause significant damage to tyre walls or Armco; cars frequently do. An exceptional case, I know, but at a BRSCC meeting at Oulton last year circuit staff were called out 25 times to repair damaged barriers, thanks mainly to the MX5s.

I think the "problem" of collecting reports has been given more prominence than it warrants. I don't think report collection does actually cause many noticeable delays, as it is more often than not done while recoveries, etc., are in progress. In many cases I'd like it to be done a little more slowly, to give me more time to write my reports!

Most clubs now are cutting down on the number of vehicle movements between races, e.g. not sending course cars out or rotating rescue units, etc, unless there are reports to collect or recoveries in progress. In defence of rotation, I must say that, having done fire car duty at Mallory, it's pretty boring sitting at the end of the pit lane all day!

Of course a lot could be done to improve turn-round between races, communication being one of them. Without wishing to open a can of worms, I think we need to move away from phones as the only means of communication between race control & marshals' posts - but that's one that's been done to death several times over in the Marshals' Forum! The bottom line for me is that we can all learn from each other - sometimes "different" is also "better"!

[JamieStewart9]

The 3-2-1 Board question was really just to open up the subject for debate. (My replies here don't appear straight away, as they have to be approved by a moderater before being visible I think, so they may appear to be out of sequence sorry....probably not a bad thing actually)

My real concern is circuit hire vs club viability. I know for a fact that there are several clubs, both car and bike, that are on the brink of going under. Whilst you might think that might be a blessing to the remaing clubs, who could theoretically share out their competitors and better fill meetings, that is actually very short sighted.

Look at the bigger picture. All circuits have got used to operating at pretty close to their theoretical capacity (within planning constraints) with race events at weekends and testing/track/corporate days through the week. Recently it has been evident that most circuits cannot completely fill their calendars at weekends, so track days on Saturdays and Sundays are becoming more commonplace. The days that they are moving from are weekdays and those days are often ending up vacant.
The circuits still have the same overheads to pay, so they need to look at how they are going to recoup those funds. Some will start running their own track days and others will start their own clubs. Both of those things protect market share and underpin the daily hire rate by artificially using up dates. It is not a coincidence that circuit hires continue to rise even in a declining market and they will keep on doing so at an increasing rate, because there are fewer customers paying the same end of season bills.

If less clubs are operating, it will exacerbate the problem and the decline will accelerate. That is a consequence of sitting back and doing nothing, or just battening down the hatches to ride out the storm. When the skies clear and the storm has passed, you might find that the world has changed forever.

Getting new/more people into racing (or back into racing), rather than simply trying to win a bigger share of those already here is the best option all round, for all levels. Getting rid of the downtime and getting more into a day for the same outlay is a no brainer to me.

----------
I read the comments about the differences in clear up times etc between cars and bikes. There are some differences, but they tend to be 6 of one and half a dozen of the other in truth. Bikes (unfortunately) have far more frequent medical delays than cars for example. Bikes also tend to stay crashed, rather than 'spun and continued' so require more pick ups.
I remember having that particular debate at one of the early Racing Ahead planning meetings and the final conclusion was that racing is racing. Looking for reasons to justify inefficient use of tracktime, was seen as hiding from the issue rather than confronting it. The scheme was originally about exactly that and it seems to have faded away during the 'good times' up to 2008.

It's needed now, more than ever.

[JimW]

What could we do without?:

1. Course cars where there is nothing to pick up (cars or paper)
2. Waiting for competitors to be ready in the assembly area
3. Waiting for cars to complete slowing down lap before gridding next race
4. 3-2-1 boards
5. Anything beyond one lap from assembly to grid and GO! To include any required formation or reconnaissance lap.
6. Clubs economising on recovery units

From my experience 2 is perhaps the commonest totally unnecessary hold-up. This is especially true when trying to make up lost time (from incidents etc.)

I've never seen why 1 does not happen routinely.

Regards

Jim

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by JamieStewart9

The 3-2-1 Board question was really just to open up the subject for debate. (My replies here don't appear straight away, as they have to be approved by a moderater before being visible I think, so they may appear to be out of sequence sorry....probably not a bad thing actually)

My real concern is circuit hire vs club viability. I know for a fact that there are several clubs, both car and bike, that are on the brink of going under. Whilst you might think that might be a blessing to the remaing clubs, who could theoretically share out their competitors and better fill meetings, that is actually very short sighted.

Look at the bigger picture. All circuits have got used to operating at pretty close to their theoretical capacity (within planning constraints) with race events at weekends and testing/track/corporate days through the week. Recently it has been evident that most circuits cannot completely fill their calendars at weekends, so track days on Saturdays and Sundays are becoming more commonplace. The days that they are moving from are weekdays and those days are often ending up vacant.
The circuits still have the same overheads to pay, so they need to look at how they are going to recoup those funds. Some will start running their own track days and others will start their own clubs. Both of those things protect market share and underpin the daily hire rate by artificially using up dates. It is not a coincidence that circuit hires continue to rise even in a declining market and they will keep on doing so at an increasing rate, because there are fewer customers paying the same end of season bills.

If less clubs are operating, it will exacerbate the problem and the decline will accelerate. That is a consequence of sitting back and doing nothing, or just battening down the hatches to ride out the storm. When the skies clear and the storm has passed, you might find that the world has changed forever.

Getting new/more people into racing (or back into racing), rather than simply trying to win a bigger share of those already here is the best option all round, for all levels. Getting rid of the downtime and getting more into a day for the same outlay is a no brainer to me.

----------
I read the comments about the differences in clear up times etc between cars and bikes. There are some differences, but they tend to be 6 of one and half a dozen of the other in truth. Bikes (unfortunately) have far more frequent medical delays than cars for example. Bikes also tend to stay crashed, rather than 'spun and continued' so require more pick ups.
I remember having that particular debate at one of the early Racing Ahead planning meetings and the final conclusion was that racing is racing. Looking for reasons to justify inefficient use of tracktime, was seen as hiding from the issue rather than confronting it. The scheme was originally about exactly that and it seems to have faded away during the 'good times' up to 2008.

It's needed now, more than ever.

The bigger picture is so easy to see if you ask me. I have just writen in another thread about it.

Firstly the board debate worked...it is not really an issue
Secondly I have to disagree about the CoC going round after a race, Tim we dont have expensive cars they are usually what the circuit provides (or our own) and in honesty (and I will take oath on this) I have seen something on a track ( a bolt as it happens) that was NOT seeable from a camera. do you want that flying up at 70/80 mph towards you in a single seater??????? Yes you can argue that a lot of the time the clerk is going round for no reason....but thats like saying the ambulance is there alot of the time for no reason....THANK GOD IT IS! regardless of whether you like it or not, that "clear" is done for a reason, forget the paperwork (how you are going to let someone go from a spectator area to the Marshal post or visa versa Max without putting someone at risk while a circuit is live is beyond my comprehension!!!!! its common sense. I used to love clearing, yes , great if you get a sponsor who provides a nice car ...porky perhaps...M3 maybe..... but as John says...in honesty...its a bore most of the time but SAFETY comes first and as John has also said...you are not the ones who are going to be up in front of the coroner are you?...its the CoC who is!

The debate about the clubs is soooo overdue. Clubs are suffocating themselves and they have not got the sense to work out the big issue and what is really happening. If I owned a circuit (as other circuits have done) I would have my organising club under my belt and THAT is what is happening and soon organising clubs will be FORCED to use them (as they are now for some events) and it will be their own fault...because too many are trying to compete against each other for NO REASON. New Series being created that are so similar to old ones the only difference is negligible and customers then get upset because grids dwindle, events PURPOSELY clashing for what?...to prove something?...do any of the organisors sit and actually think about creating a better environment for themselves?

there are not going to be any more Race Circuits built in this country, Swampy and the rest of his gang wont allow it and " you know...its just not ....for the environment man" ...what is going to happen when the circuits realise the only way forward is to make use of their OWN clubs and keep all the good bits for themselves? (its already being done) .....where does that leave orginisors and indeed competitors?....think about it, once there is no competition....then there is nothing to stop anyone charging what they like ....how long before we lose a circuit perhaps?

Clubs need to change the way they create and keep business, they need to wake up to what their CUSTOMERS need because it will not be long before it implodes on itself

[JimW]

And I should have added:


7. Leaving the treatment of spilled oil to marshals. Bring on mechanical spreader and a commercial sweeper.


I'm sure there are other suggestions?

Jim

[JimW]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

. . .
Secondly I have to disagree about the CoC going round after a race, Tim we dont have expensive cars they are usually what the circuit provides (or our own) and in honesty (and I will take oath on this) I have seen something on a track ( a bolt as it happens) that was NOT seeable from a camera. do you want that flying up at 70/80 mph towards you in a single seater??????? . . .

That's the job of the marshals, leave it to them.

Regards

Jim

[gt917]

[QUOTE=Tim Falce;3006425]Well that M3 at Brands is far more expensive than my 16 year old Diesel Corsa, but being poor keeps me humble

Tim,

Having been "on duty" for two days in that M3 at Brands in the summer i can tell you that you need a top of the range, comfortable (air con), very well handling and powerful safety car.

You have to sit in, engine running, belted ,suited, booted and helmetted and ready to go in an instant. I was very gratefull to be asked and i can tell you it was one of the best motor racing experiences i have had, and a real eye opener. To have to keep control of a snarling pack of race cars during incidents, etc, etc, is very demanding, and at times more exhilirating than racing itself.

Ask to do it one day at a busy meeting and i think you would soon eat humble pie.

GT.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by JimW

That's the job of the marshals, leave it to them.

Regards

Jim

No its NOT the job of the Marshals im sorry but its not and Im not being nasty about this at all....but the marshal will not be in front of the coroner either ...nor the national court

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by gt917

Tim,

Having been "on duty" for two days in that M3 at Brands in the summer i can tell you that you need a top of the range, comfortable (air con), very well handling and powerful safety car.

You have to sit in, engine running, belted ,suited, booted and helmetted and ready to go in an instant. I was very gratefull to be asked and i can tell you it was one of the best motor racing experiences i have had, and a real eye opener. To have to keep control of a snarling pack of race cars during incidents, etc, etc, is very demanding, and at times more exhilirating than racing itself.

Ask to do it one day at a busy meeting and i think you would soon eat humble pie.

GT.

Yes Graham, been there done it for 6 hours at Snetterton the other year, had the sore bum and stiff neck where I fell asleep to prove it. I think a few of you are having a sense of humour failure, the ones that have commented on my posts know me quite well (you especially Graham) and should know my comments on expensive cars and driving around in them are tongue in cheek. This all started as a debate about countdown boards and has escalated into the usual them and us debate as is going on in historics with club membership.

John or Claire, or any other clerk for that matter, I'd love to spend a day in race control to see what goes on but I'd not be much use to anyone and I'd only get in the way.

In the meantime I'll chuck my teddy out of the pram and stay out of this, and sorry if I offended you John.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

Yes Graham, been there done it for 6 hours at Snetterton the other year, had the sore bum and stiff neck where I fell asleep to prove it. I think a few of you are having a sense of humour failure, the ones that have commented on my posts know me quite well (you especially Graham) and should know my comments on expensive cars and driving around in them are tongue in cheek. This all started as a debate about countdown boards and has escalated into the usual them and us debate as is going on in historics with club membership.

John or Claire, or any other clerk for that matter, I'd love to spend a day in race control to see what goes on but I'd not be much use to anyone and I'd only get in the way.

In the meantime I'll chuck my teddy out of the pram and stay out of this, and sorry if I offended you John.

Tim you didn't offend me hon xxx you've always been my favourite

[johngee]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

In the meantime I'll chuck my teddy out of the pram and stay out of this, and sorry if I offended you John.

You haven't offended me at all Tim. I'm not in a position of being critical of others, whose opinions I respect, who use humour to make their point - I do it all the time.

[JamieStewart9]

Wow, I didn't know this was already an old and maybe tired debate. Sorry for raking over old stuff.

I guess I'll keep my own counsel on it then. It would just make life a lot easier all round if a sensible non-clashing calendar could be planned together and in conjunction with the circuits, instead of the cards held close to the chest until it's almost too late scenario that currently seems to prevail.

Claire is 100% wrong about one thing though, the marshals could end up in the Coroners Court just as easily as the Clerk of the Course. In bikes it's far more common to have fatalities sadly. I listen quite often to people within motorsport trotting out the old chestnut "It's not you who'll be in front of the coroner" when they have little or no idea of the actual process in the modern world. I've been there as a Race Director, Clerk of the Course, Circuit Manager, Competitor, Riders Representative and Expert Witness on no less than 12 ocassions, so trust me EVERYONE is equally bound by their duty of care and anyones actions can be called into question, not just the Clerk of the Course. (Sorry Claire, but it's a justification I hate to hear used to put down another mans viewpoint.)

I'll get me coat.

Dave

[JimW]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

No its NOT the job of the Marshals im sorry but its not and Im not being nasty about this at all....but the marshal will not be in front of the coroner either ...nor the national court

Claire, I wonder if we are talking about the same issue?

1. It is not a requirement for the CoC to inspect the course other than "before the start of practice or competition".
2. The "eyes and ears" of the CoC are his/her Observers.
3. Several Clubs never send out the (or "a") CoC during the entire event
4. Several Clubs don't send out any course car between sessions if there is no specific reason to do so
5. Plenty of marshals have appeared before the "MSA National court" and some before a Coroner's Court

(One and two reflect the Blue Book, Q 5 and 9. All of the above refer to MSA events, the FIA may well be different - in theory at least.)

Regards

Jim