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Old 9 Sep 2004, 17:20 (Ref:1091072)   #1
Team Gunston
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Lucky Strike Racing March 721/1

Hi,

Although French (please sorry for my bad English), I'm a keen enthusiast of the history of the exotic South African F1/F5000/FA/F2 Championship of the early '70s.

Much has been told and written about the top cars entered in this championship such as the 49 and 72 Lotuses or the McLaren M23. But what about the March 721 campaigned by Lucky Strike Racing, aka Scuderia Scribante, in 1973 and 1974 ? And what about the obsolete Surtees and Brabham of the Domingo brothers ?

I'm interested in any individual racing or behind the scenes history of these cars, as well as in any pic or official programme of the 1972-1975 races.

Thank you very much for your help.

Best regards,
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Old 10 Sep 2004, 12:38 (Ref:1091906)   #2
Michael Oliver
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Re: Lucky Strike Racing March 721/1

Quote:
Originally posted by Team Gunston
Hi,

Although French (please sorry for my bad English), I'm a keen enthusiast of the history of the exotic South African F1/F5000/FA/F2 Championship of the early '70s.

Much has been told and written about the top cars entered in this championship such as the 49 and 72 Lotuses or the McLaren M23. But what about the March 721 campaigned by Lucky Strike Racing, aka Scuderia Scribante, in 1973 and 1974 ? And what about the obsolete Surtees and Brabham of the Domingo brothers ?

I'm interested in any individual racing or behind the scenes history of these cars, as well as in any pic or official programme of the 1972-1975 races.

Thank you very much for your help.

Best regards,
I think you need some copies of Lucky Strike Racing, a newsletter published during the 1970s on behalf of LS but which provided race reports of all the SA events. Or, if you can find one, a copy of 'A Record of South African Formula 1 Racing 1960-75' which was published in limited number (100 copies!) by the Formula 1 Register.

If you cannot find a copy or any LSRs, come back to me and I'll look in my copy of the F1 Register book - it is just that I don't have the time to do this at the moment. Somewhere I have a colour photo of the March (which was, IIRC, driven by John McNicol) which someone sent to me thinking it was a photo of the LS Lotus 72 - I suppose the side radiators fooled them - but I will have to search a bit to find it as it is filed away somewhere. I may also have some photos of the Domingo cars too but again this will take some time to find!!!

Michael Oliver
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Old 10 Sep 2004, 14:05 (Ref:1091991)   #3
Team Gunston
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Thank you very much Michael,

It is a great honour for me to receive a reply from the author of the big and definitive Lotus 72 book. A book I enjoy so much, partly because of the chapter dedicated to the South African owners and racers of the car.

Of course I'm interested in LSR News copies, but of course such exotic items are impossible to find in France. Even through Ebay, it seems difficult.

Thus I'm coming back to you as suggested, doing my best to be patient. I take leave to tell you too that 1972-1975 SA F1 championships entry lists, with the names of the teams/entrants, would be first class information for me.

Incidentally, about the Domingo brothers, can you confirm that Joe's Surtees of the 1975 temporada was the ex-John Love TS9, since a certain website dedicated to individual histories of F1 and F5000 chassis traces it as the ex-Andrea De Adamich TS9B ?

Thank you again,

Philippe, aka Team Gunston
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Old 10 Sep 2004, 14:20 (Ref:1092006)   #4
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Philippe

I think that I may also be able to help you with some info you need. Drop me an email, if you wish.
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Old 10 Sep 2004, 14:42 (Ref:1092036)   #5
Team Gunston
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Thank you Hieronymus,

It's pleasant to get some news directly from South Africa.

I'm a newcomer on this forum and I don't know exactly how to process. Is the following email address what you were expecting ?

philippe.rafesthain@wanadoo.fr

Thank you for letting me know. I'm anger to have further news from you. I'm at my office presently, but I'll be soon at home.

Fond memories from France,

Philippe
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Old 10 Sep 2004, 17:30 (Ref:1092149)   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Team Gunston
... Incidentally, about the Domingo brothers, can you confirm that Joe's Surtees of the 1975 temporada was the ex-John Love TS9, since a certain website dedicated to individual histories of F1 and F5000 chassis traces it as the ex-Andrea De Adamich TS9B ?...
"a certain website"? Wonder which one...

I bet it's right
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Old 10 Sep 2004, 18:57 (Ref:1092211)   #7
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I give you the answer AllenBrown : this website is www.oldracingcars.com, which indicates that TS9/003 was raced (and crashed) by John Love in 1971/1972, then by Nols Niemann in 1973, and that Joe Domingo drove TS9B/004 in 1975.

But on the same site, one can read elsewhere (F5000 chapter) that Niermann's 1973 car was TS8/04, owned by Alex Blignaut.

Further more, a close look at a photo in the Michael Oliver's Lotus 72 book (page 208), showing the starting grid of the Republic Day Trophy race et Kyalami, May 1975, allows to see a Surtees (#22) with a TS9 nose and not a distinctive TS9B one.

Other sources I don't remember where on the web indicate that the wreck of Love's car was bought by the Domingo brothers.

Where is the truth ? Racing records of individual chassis are often made of surprise and mystery. This is another example.

Thank you for your contribution. I would be pleased to have your point of view.
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Old 10 Sep 2004, 20:34 (Ref:1092295)   #8
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I may be wrong when I identify the #22 car on the picture I was speaking about as Joe Domingo's Surtees TS9. Dave Hart's TS8 (ex-Blignaut) is, I believe now, a more probable option. It's interesting to note that, as far as I can see, the driver sports an open-face helmet (the year is 1975, remember).

I apologize, and, in absence of photographic evidence, I'm ready to believe that Domingo's Surtees was TS9B/004.
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Old 10 Sep 2004, 21:18 (Ref:1092343)   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Team Gunston
I give you the answer AllenBrown : this website is www.oldracingcars.com, which indicates that TS9/003 was raced (and crashed) by John Love in 1971/1972, then by Nols Niemann in 1973, and that Joe Domingo drove TS9B/004 in 1975.
Philippe,

You'll get used to Allen's sense of humour - You may want to look at the name of the author of OldRacingCars.com....

Oh, and I bet he's right too....

Jeremy
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Old 10 Sep 2004, 21:54 (Ref:1092353)   #10
Team Gunston
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Well done men. Shame on me. Next time I'll take care.

But still a problem appears to me in your records, for Nols Niemann is reported to have driven two different Surtees in 1973 (F5000 TS8 / F1 TS9), and both ex-Team Gunston I believe. Yes, it is not impossible. Thank you for further explanations.

The information about the Domingo car being ex-Love comes from www.tgpf1.com, as follows :

'...The car was built and tested by Surtees as the only "customer" car ever produced by the team. The car was then shipped to Team Gunston in South Africa where it was piloted extensively by John Love during 1971 and 1972. In his final outing in the car John Love had a serious crash and decided to retire from single-seater racing.

The damaged car was then purchased by the Domingo Brothers who, as Indians, were not allowed to race at Kyalami. It remained in their ownership until 1985 when David McLaughlin bought the car and brought it back to England with the intention of restoring it to its former glory.'

Of course, the fact that Love gave up racing after his last crash with TS9/003, or the fact that the Domingos were not allowed to run at Kyalami are erroneous. So it is doubtful that what is said elsewhere is more reliable. What is your opinion ?
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Old 11 Sep 2004, 13:45 (Ref:1092899)   #11
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The TGP history is partly right. Love did retire but came out of retirement to drive F2 cars a little later. Also, the Domingos were unable to race in South Africa until, IIRC, July 1971.

The story of the Love TS9 going to the Domingos has been recorded in a number of places but appears to date back to some F1 Register guesswork. They will have noticed Love's TS9 disappear and then the Domingo's TS9 appear and would have made the perfectly reasonable assumption that it was the same car.

I had no reason to doubt their history until David McLaughlin showed me the damaged tub from the TS9 in one of his lockups in 1984 still with Gunston paintwork.

Exactly how TS9B/004 got to South Africa is not clear but its last GP appearance was early in 1973 when de Adamich took it to eighth place at the South African GP.

Its movements over the next six months are not clear but in August 1973, Alex Blignaut brought a Surtees TS9 along to Killarney for Nols Niemann, replacing his new but deeply disappointing F5000 Surtees TS8. Niemann immediately leapt in performance, taking third at Killarney, and then qualifying fourth at Bulawayo and Kyalami.

Perhaps Michael or Ian or hieronymus can tell us what the local magazines said about this.

Allen
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Old 11 Sep 2004, 16:22 (Ref:1093049)   #12
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Very nice Allen, except the fact that, what I'm understanding today, is that the Blignaut/Niemann late 1973 F1 car would apparently be the ex-De Adamich TS9B/004 and not the TS9/003 as recorded on your oldracingcars website. Do you follow me ?

Incidentally, I think you are wrong when you write that 'John Love did retire and came out of retirement to drive F2 cars a little later', for he moved straight away from the wrecked Surtees to the Team Gunston Brabham BT33 for the rest of the 1972 season, replacing his old open-face helmet for a more modern and safer one in the process.

Philippe
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Old 12 Sep 2004, 09:45 (Ref:1093835)   #13
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Good point. Very good point. Looks like Jeremy and I both lose our bet.

I went back to my notes before that last post but I didn't look at ORC. My notes make clear that I don't know which was the Niemann car but it looked like it had to be the future Domingo car. However, my database diagrees and reckons it was the former Love car. Obviously the day I did that entry in the database, I saw it differently.

I may know why. One additional complexity that I didn't mention in my last post is that TS9/003 would very probably have had a replacement tub after its first accident so it is possible that the tub David showed me was the original tub and that the second tub was repaired and sold to Blignaut. It's also possible that TS9B/004 was the replacement

Does anyone know for cerain where the Domingos got the TS9B? Anyone ever asked them? Blignaut's not in a position to be asked any more, is he?

Allen
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Old 12 Sep 2004, 10:21 (Ref:1093866)   #14
Team Gunston
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It seems that each new answer raises a new question Allen.

As far as I know, Love had two big crashes with his Surtees : the first in the summer of 1971, the second and final one at the end of the 1972 SA GP.

If the 003 tub had been replaced after the first crash by 004, then there were two 004 tubs at the start of the 1972 SA GP, for 004 is officialy reported to have been in De Adamich's hands there.

Isn't it more realistic to imagine that 003 was only repaired, and not replaced, during the 1971/1972 winter, and that Blignault bought both original (and wrecked) 003 from Team Gunston and 004 from Ceramica Pagnossin, then rebuilding the two cars into one ? Photographs of the Blignaut and/or Domingo's car would be of real interest.
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Old 12 Sep 2004, 16:53 (Ref:1094210)   #15
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I have just found a photograph at the following address :



The year is 1973 and car #8 is Ian Scheckter's Chevron B25. But which is the Surtees wearing #13 (?) in the background : TS8 or TS9, and who, where, when ?

Philippe
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Old 12 Sep 2004, 19:38 (Ref:1094366)   #16
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Hi
I will try and find some info from John Love he was in england for the british gp I saw a lot of him and I will contact him for you.
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Old 12 Sep 2004, 21:52 (Ref:1094468)   #17
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Originally posted by Team Gunston
If the 003 tub had been replaced after the first crash by 004, then there were two 004 tubs at the start of the 1972 SA GP, for 004 is officialy reported to have been in De Adamich's hands there.
Good. So that rules out 004 coming via Love. Blignaut or Domingo must have bought it directly from Surtees.

Quote:
Originally posted by Team Gunston
Isn't it more realistic to imagine that 003 was only repaired, and not replaced, during the 1971/1972 winter, and that Blignault bought both original (and wrecked) 003 from Team Gunston and 004 from Ceramica Pagnossin, then rebuilding the two cars into one ? Photographs of the Blignaut and/or Domingo's car would be of real interest.
If 003 was only repaired - and I agree this is most likely - then the same tub was involved in both accidents and that is the tub McLaughlin acquired from South Africa. It was still in Gunston colours and came from a Gunston connection so can't be the Blignaut or Domingo car.

More likely Blignaut bought TS9B/004 direct from Surtees - as he had bought second-hand TS5As in December 1971. Bear in mind Ceramica Pagnossin were only a sponsor, not an owner.

I'm not 100% sure about Blignaut's F5000 TS8 - it was not necessarily the same car that Ferguson and Driver had in 1971/1972 - that may also be a F1 Register assumption. Maybe that Ferguson car was wrecked in his practice accident at Kyalami 3 Jun 1972. Again, Blignaut may have got a quite separate TS8 direct from Team Surtees in 1973.

All sorts of mysteries here when you start to look more closely

Allen
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Old 12 Sep 2004, 21:55 (Ref:1094474)   #18
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Waaooh !

Thank you very much Flatbroke. If you are able to join Him, it would look like you are in direct relationship with God. I believe he's 80 by now, isn't he ?

Tell Him he has a true supporter in France. His distinctive attitude at the wheel of his orange and brown cars has been printed in my brain since I was a young boy. My pseudonym on this chat room isn't a casualty... Tell Him also that I would be grateful for ever if he gives me any help to feed my interest in South African F1 of the old good days.

Best regards,

Philippe
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Old 12 Sep 2004, 22:17 (Ref:1094499)   #19
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We are now speaking the same language Allen. I'm anger to get some photographs from South Africa to have a visual confirmation.

The fact that you were speaking about Blignaut's TS5A is of my interest too. I know that various examples of TS5, 5A or 5B (?) raced in the SA championship, and found 2 pics of the 1972 Lucky Strike Racing one, but I'm unable to make the differences between the 3 models, nor to trace the successive owners/racers in SA. Oldracingcars.com didn't help me very much with the TS5, so further (if not exhaustive) informations are welcome too.

Thank you again Allen,
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Old 12 Sep 2004, 22:35 (Ref:1094514)   #20
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Originally posted by Team Gunston
... Oldracingcars.com didn't help me very much with the TS5 ...
Philippe, check your PMs. A present for you!

Allen
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Old 12 Sep 2004, 22:41 (Ref:1094517)   #21
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A present ? Very nice ! But I don't know how to open it : please, what do you mean by "check your PMs" ? In my French English, I don't understand what are PMs.
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Old 13 Sep 2004, 14:14 (Ref:1095210)   #22
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It's OK by now. See my own PM elsewhere and please excuse the rookie I am. A.J. Foyt too was once a rookie...
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Old 14 Sep 2004, 20:34 (Ref:1096703)   #23
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Hello Allen,

I have got a new piece of information about Joe Domingo's Surtees TS9B today, but unfortunatly one which is likely to add confusion to the mystery we are trying to solve.

Let me explain : according to Peter Macintosh's definitive SA F1 records I got with the precious help of Hieronymus, Domingo's 1975 car would be in fact TS9B/005, in other words the ex-Pereira-Bueno's car !!! Sorry, still no photographic confirmation for the moment.

As I have not got the 1973 records yet, I cannot tell you more about the Blignaut/Niemann part of the history, but I'm going to go from surprise to surprise, aren't you ?

And last but not least, an even more mysterious March 711 is appearing among the DNAs at the 1975 Natal Spring Trophy (Pietermaritzburg circuit, 1st September). This car was to be driven by Len Booysen as an alternative of his regular McLaren M10B ! Life of motor racing historians is not a quiet river...

Best regards,

Philippe
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Old 15 Sep 2004, 06:47 (Ref:1096977)   #24
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Philippe

I'll believe Peter on race results (race times, average speeds, list of retirement reasons, etc) as he apparantly spent much time in his local library researching the race results from newspapers. However, I'll only believe him and Paul on chassis numbers if I know their source. I understand that Peter wasn't at the races so he didn't read it on a chassis plate. Newspaper reports aren't going to mention chassis numbers and I have access to most, if not all, the same magazine reports he'd have had. So where's it from? As we're always saying on TNF, you're only as good as your sources.

When I saw the results of Ian Hebblethwaite's research into the SA McLarens, which he did by talking to owners and going to visit surviving cars, it showed the F1 Register book to be seriously wrong. When I read the new book I ignored the '005' reference.

The only thing that will genuinely move the story forward is going to chat to the Domingos or to someone closely involved with Blignaut's team.

Mysterious DNAs are the bane of any motor racing historian's life. If they DNA, then did they even exist? I spent ages trying to trace Frank Opalka's DNA-ing McKee Mk 8 earlier in the year only for Frank to kindly email me to say he never took delivery and can't be certain it was ever built.

Best regards

Allen
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Old 15 Sep 2004, 09:07 (Ref:1097051)   #25
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Thank you Allen.

My doubts in Mcintosh's records as far as chassis numbers are concerned are increasing since I have discovered that he reported that Team Gunston and Domingo Brabaham BT33 was BT33/4, which is an unknown chassis number.

New pics are appearing regularly on the Motorpics.co.za website and one can attest from that source that, when Willie Ferguson drove the car first time out, it was in MRD colours, so it is hard to believe it was a new car built for him. Matching the entry lists and the cars numbers, also I have discovered that the odd #7 car on the photo showing the starting grid of the 1975 Republic Trophy, in Michael Oliver's Lotus 72 book, was Mike Domingo's Brabham BT33. It had a very much alterated bodywork indeed ! And from my point of view, an horror compared with the neat lines of the original car.

Incidentally, I thought that Ferguson's car was entered under the Team Gunston banner at the 1972 SA GP. Was I wrong ? When the deal between Ferguson and Team Gunston (or Love) did occure ?
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