Lucky Strike Racing March 721/1

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by Team Gunston
It seems that each new answer raises a new question Allen.

As far as I know, Love had two big crashes with his Surtees : the first in the summer of 1971, the second and final one at the end of the 1972 SA GP.

If the 003 tub had been replaced after the first crash by 004, then there were two 004 tubs at the start of the 1972 SA GP, for 004 is officialy reported to have been in De Adamich's hands there.

Isn't it more realistic to imagine that 003 was only repaired, and not replaced, during the 1971/1972 winter, and that Blignault bought both original (and wrecked) 003 from Team Gunston and 004 from Ceramica Pagnossin, then rebuilding the two cars into one ? Photographs of the Blignaut and/or Domingo's car would be of real interest.

Hi Philippe

It seems that hieronymous, in my absence, has sorted you out with the info you were looking for, which saves me a job! I too have found several mistakes relating to chassis numbers in the MacIntosh book so would treat that area with caution, as Allen suggests. Unfortunately, we can't even ask the author any more, as IIRC, I read his obituary in Classic Car Africa recently. I did speak to him prior to his death about the apparent mistakes with the Lotus 72 info and I'm afraid he wasn't able to shed any light on this area - my impression was that he hadn't researched this particular aspect himself.

Regarding the Love TS9, I am sure that I have been told that a complete replacement chassis for the TS9B was fabricated in South Africa after the first accident (which IIRC was the one where it went right under the barrier and nearly decapitated Love). I cannot at this point recall who is was that told me (may even have been Love, as I spoke to him at some length when writing my Lotus 49 book, but probably more likely one of the SA mechanics I made contact with.

As I think I mentioned, I have some photos that I can look at, but don't have a lot of time to go through them all at present, so may not be able to do this for a week or so.

[IANHEB]

Allan,
My understanding is that a well known local dealer bought both the BT 33 and the Surtees from the Domingos in about 1983/4.The Surtees was sent to the UK and restored by K.Adams and then used in a few events by the owner,colour dark blue.It was then sold to somebody like "Hall and Fowler",but the owner cannot be sure.The new owner/driver crashed the car badly shortly afterwards.
The Domingos offered the car as ex Hailwood,and the SA owner recalls that matching with the chassis plate which was on the car.Have you seen this car in the last 20 years and been able to identify it ?.
Regards
Ian

[Team Gunston]

Thank you both Michael and Ian,

I confirm to Michael that Hieronymus is more than kind and helpful, having sent me all the entry lists and results I was searching.

But still photographs are welcome.

About the Domingos Bros' cars :

1/ Mike's Brabham BT33 : I previously said that its modified bodywork was an "horror" compared with the neat lines of the original car. But to my great surprise, I have just discovered, thanks to a photo taken on 3rd April 1972 at Pietermaritzburg, that in fact the bodywork was modified soon after he was acquired by Love. So it was not a job made by the Domingos at all. The brothers apparantly just opted for a new airbox in Hesketh style.

2/ Joe's Surtees : both TS9/004 and 005 are ex-Hailwood cars, so there is still a possible doubt. At least, with this info, the possibility of Joe's car being ex-Love 003 is reaching a new stage in "the more than doubtful" asumptions.

Chassis 004 or 005 either, Domingo's Surtees was a TS9B. But I wonder what is the most correct when speaking about Love's car : simply TS9 (I believe so) or, according to some 1972 SA GP reports, TS9A ?

Best regards,

Philippe

[Team Gunston]

Heh ! You know what ? The odd and ugly bodywork of the Love+Domingo Brabham BT33 : it was an official Motor Racing Developments Ltd job !

Shame on me once more : I didn't make the relation earlier between the "South African car" and the reworked BT33/3 that Graham Hill drove at the 1972 SA GP, but there is no doubt that the bodywork is the same. Much less ugly in my opinion, though, in overall white MRD colours.

One can assume, then, that Love and Team Gunston bought that bodywork and some spare parts before MRD departed from Kyalami, with the idea of updating the BT33/1 chassis they got via Willie Ferguson. Their Surtees TS9 was a wreck and, with the SA Drivers Championship in their mind, they had an urgent need for a modern F1 racer to replace it.

I confirm, thanks to a photo from motorpics.co.za (http://www.motorpics.co.za/prod/mpSp...=3680328-10269) that BT33/1 still had its original bodywork when Willie Ferguson raced it first time out (Highveld "100", Kyalami, 29.01.1972).

Philippe

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by Team Gunston
I have just found a photograph at the following address :



The year is 1973 and car #8 is Ian Scheckter's Chevron B25. But which is the Surtees wearing #13 (?) in the background : TS8 or TS9, and who, where, when ?

Philippe

Hi Philippe

Sorry I haven't been contributing to this thread for a while! I believe the photo on motorpics is actually taken either at Bulawayo (10/6/73)or Pietermaritzburg (01/7/73) and shows Ian Scheckter (Team Gunston Chevron B25), Tony Martin (South Coast Motors Chevron B20), Jackie Pretorius (Team Clover Brabham BT38) and Nols Niemann (Alex Blignaut/Embassy SA Surtees TS8). By this stage, the F1 cars had a full-width nose cone, so I am 100% sure the car shown is an F5000.

Interestingly, I have come across a photo of what appears to be Niemann in a Surtees TS9B at Kyalami on the weekend of 04/8/73, e.g. one race before the reported first appearance of the Blignaut TS9B-DFV at Killarney (25/8/73). The car carries the number 4 (which was not used by anybody at the event that weekend) so I can only assume that he used it as a T-car during practice but elected not to race it for whatever reason, so did not actually race it until Killarney. I do not own the copyright of the photo, so cannot post it, but I could PM you with it if you would like to see it.

Hope this helps!

Michael

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by Michael Oliver
Hi Philippe

Sorry I haven't been contributing to this thread for a while! I believe the photo on motorpics is actually taken either at Bulawayo (10/6/73)or Pietermaritzburg (01/7/73) and shows Ian Scheckter (Team Gunston Chevron B25), Tony Martin (South Coast Motors Chevron B20), Jackie Pretorius (Team Clover Brabham BT38) and Nols Niemann (Alex Blignaut/Embassy SA Surtees TS8). By this stage, the F1 cars had a full-width nose cone, so I am 100% sure the car shown is an F5000.

Interestingly, I have come across a photo of what appears to be Niemann in a Surtees TS9B at Kyalami on the weekend of 04/8/73, e.g. one race before the reported first appearance of the Blignaut TS9B-DFV at Killarney (25/8/73). The car carries the number 4 (which was not used by anybody at the event that weekend) so I can only assume that he used it as a T-car during practice but elected not to race it for whatever reason, so did not actually race it until Killarney. I do not own the copyright of the photo, so cannot post it, but I could PM you with it if you would like to see it.

Hope this helps!

Michael

A couple of other things...

Re the Love car, it was definitely 003 (there is a reference to this in Autosport, June 10th 1971, p2) and was described simply as a TS9. I have spoken to the person who brought the car back to the UK in the 1980s and he says it was definitely the Gunston car and that it was still damaged when he bought it, showing that it had not been sold on to anyone else and repaired.

Oh, and sorry, I made a mistake referring to Love's car as a TS9B, it was a TS9 of the original design, e.g. like the TS7 of the previous year with the arrow-head nose. The TS9B had side radiators and a full-width nose and I don't think the Love car had this, or at least it didn't in its first incarnation - it may have been updated to the later spec (first seen on a works car at the 1971 Italian GP) for the two races it did in 1972.

[Team Gunston]

Thank you for your contribution Michael. It's never too late.

According to photographic evidence, Love's Surtees was not uptated to TS9B specifications in 1972. My doubts were about a possible TS9A update, a transitional version between TS9 and TS9B entered in the last GPs of the 1971 season by Team Surtees. But honestly, I don't know exactly which are the differences between the TS9 and the TS9A.

Of course I would like to see the photo of the Blignaut/Niemann's Surtees TS9B. This is very much of interest to me. So thank you for sending me a PM or an e-mail at the personal address I have given on this thread already.

I'm at my office presently and I have not at my disposal the full entry lists that Hieronymus has sent me. So I cannot confirm the presence and the fate of this car at the Kyalami meeting, where and when the photo is supposed to have been taken.

Thank you again, Michael.

Philippe

[hieronymus]

Originally posted by allenbrown

I'll believe Peter on race results (race times, average speeds, list of retirement reasons, etc) as he apparantly spent much time in his local library researching the race results from newspapers. However, I'll only believe him and Paul on chassis numbers if I know their source. I understand that Peter wasn't at the races so he didn't read it on a chassis plate.

Some background on Peter Macintosh...

Peter Macintosh was a friend of mine. He attended several races all over South Africa, where he acted as time keeper for various teams. After each event he received the official results from the race organisers, where the race was held.

Chassis numbers I can only speculate about. I never asked him where he got his details for chassis numbers. I presume that some of it came from the books in his collection. Doug Nye's "Cooper Cars" and "Lotus Story" comes to mind. He made some notes in these books, where chassis numbers were given for cars used by South African drivers.

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by hieronymus
Some background on Peter Macintosh...

Peter Macintosh was a friend of mine. He attended several races all over South Africa, where he acted as time keeper for various teams. After each event he received the official results from the race organisers, where the race was held.

Chassis numbers I can only speculate about. I never asked him where he got his details for chassis numbers. I presume that some of it came from the books in his collection. Doug Nye's "Cooper Cars" and "Lotus Story" comes to mind. He made some notes in these books, where chassis numbers were given for cars used by South African drivers.

I tend to agree with Allen on this one: I am sure that Peter's race results are, by and large, very accurate but I am not convinced about the chassis numbers - there are too many mistakes that I have come across for me to be confident of their accuracy.

Examples I can think of off the top of my head include the chassis numbers for Lotus 72s in the latter half of the 1975 season, the incorrect chassis numbers given to the Love March 701 and the Ferguson/Gunston/Domingo Brabham BT33, the suggestion that the Love TS9 raced at Welkom in 1971, the mixing up of the chassis numbers of the Driver and McNicol McLaren M10Bs from one year (race, even!) to the next and so on.

I do not wish to denigrate the work of Peter, Paul Sheldon and the F1 Register. Their book is a spectacular, vast body of work and some mistakes are inevitable. It is indeed an invaluable source of reference, but it is also not an infallible one...

[allenbrown]

Originally posted by Michael Oliver
I do not wish to denigrate the work of Peter, Paul Sheldon and the F1 Register. Their book is a spectacular, vast body of work and some mistakes are inevitable. It is indeed an invaluable source of reference, but it is also not an infallible one...

This is my feeling precisely. I couldn't have put it better.

When I was a young lad infuriating my maths teacher, he always used to stress to me the importance of "showing my workings" - i.e showing how I reached the answer. This is my only real criticism of Peter, Paul and Duncan. A few more footnotes saying "Racing Car News (Aug 1970 p123) says this was the ex-Matich car" would have saved me man-years of work.

Allen

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by Team Gunston
Hello Allen,

I have got a new piece of information about Joe Domingo's Surtees TS9B today, but unfortunatly one which is likely to add confusion to the mystery we are trying to solve.

Let me explain : according to Peter Macintosh's definitive SA F1 records I got with the precious help of Hieronymus, Domingo's 1975 car would be in fact TS9B/005, in other words the ex-Pereira-Bueno's car !!! Sorry, still no photographic confirmation for the moment.

Hi Philippe

I've just got off the telephone to Mike Domingo and he tells me that they bought the Surtees TS9B from Alex Blignaut. He also told me that the chassis number was TS9B/4. This was unprompted, e.g. I did not suggest which number of the two possible candidates I thought it was.

So we have the following information:

May 24th edition of Autosport - Team Surtees advertisement:

"Team Surtees has surplus to its requirements two 1972 Formula 1 TS9B works chassis, complete less engines. These chassis can be immediately converted to Formula 5000/Formula A spec with parts available to make a very competitive car. Ample spares available for maintenance."

Almost three months later to the day, Nols Niemann appears in a TS9B-DFV at the Killarney round of the South African Drivers Championship.

This car is later sold to Mike Domingo, who states that it was chassis TS9B/4.

I guess the next thing would be to contact whoever purchased it when it came back from South Africa.

Ian Heb: can you tell me the name of the 'well-known local dealer' who purchased the Domingo Surtees and Brabham? (PM me if you don't want to put it into the public domain!) By K. Adams I assume you mean Kerry Adams? I will also talk to Hall & Fowler (or Hall & Hall as they are now known) and see what they know/recall.

Cheers

Michael

[allenbrown]

Hi Michael

Did you ask him about the one, two or maybe three Lola T140/T142s he and his brothers had too?

Allen

[Chris Townsend]

This is probably unfair, but if someone is talking to Mike Domingo please could they enquire after the two Chevron B25s the family raced in 1976?

I know these were the two ex Team Lexington cars, so know the numbers - I'd like to know [and it will be a miracle if someone else does...] which car Joe raced, and which was the one used by John Nicholson and Yanus Domingo.
[One car was ex Love/Tunmer/Klomfass; the other ex Ian Scheckter/van Hage, that might jog a memory]

Chris

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by allenbrown
Hi Michael

Did you ask him about the one, two or maybe three Lola T140/T142s he and his brothers had too?

Allen

Hi Allen

No, I agreed to call him back for a longer chat at a later date, as it was like burning £5 notes calling him during the day! But I will ask about that...

Anything else you want to know?

Michael

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by Chris Townsend
This is probably unfair, but if someone is talking to Mike Domingo please could they enquire after the two Chevron B25s the family raced in 1976?

I know these were the two ex Team Lexington cars, so know the numbers - I'd like to know [and it will be a miracle if someone else does...] which car Joe raced, and which was the one used by John Nicholson and Yanus Domingo.
[One car was ex Love/Tunmer/Klomfass; the other ex Ian Scheckter/van Hage, that might jog a memory]

Chris

Hi Chris

Will try and ask about this too. Yanus (Yunus?) is also known as Tony and there is another brother, Alan, too. Mike did mention to me that he had bought a Modus at the same time as Charlton (so I guess this was for the 1976 season) and then he had purchased Ian Scheckter's spare car, a March 77B, later on. I don't know if this matches the facts, I haven't had time to check yet, could it have been a 76B, as Scheckter went F1 in 77 didn't he?

Michael

[Chris Townsend]

Michael

The ex Ian Scheckter March was his first 76B which got badly damaged in mid season. The Domingoes bought it [or the damaged tub, I think] and rebuilt it with spares in 1977 for Mike. Schecker's 76B would probably have been chassis 1, and my guess is that the plate stayed on the rebuilt car he used late in 76 and which went to Klomfass in 77. I'd be very surprised if the Domingo car was plated.

The Modus appears to have been an incarnation of some bits of M3-022 an ex Brise car according to contemporary reports. The bulk of this car went in to what I call 022/054 - used by John Nicholson in 75 and now in the hands of Bryan Miller. If you could check that the Domingo Modus was used by John Simpson in 1977 I'd be grateful. [And if there are any Atlantic programmes, results sheets, q times, photos, etc which Mike is happy to copy or loan for the Atlantic records on oldracingcars I'd be delighted to see them!]

Chris

[Team Gunston]

Originally posted by Michael Oliver
I've just got off the telephone to Mike Domingo and he tells me that they bought the Surtees TS9B from Alex Blignaut. He also told me that the chassis number was TS9B/4. This was unprompted, e.g. I did not suggest which number of the two possible candidates I thought it was.

Many thanks, Michael, for such a great job and your kind help. Thanks to our latest private chats and your rare photos, we were 95% sure that Blignaut's and Domingo's Surtees was the same car, aka chassis number TS9B/004. By now, we can assume that we are 99,99% sure.

Best regards,

Philippe

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by Chris Townsend
Michael

The ex Ian Scheckter March was his first 76B which got badly damaged in mid season. The Domingoes bought it [or the damaged tub, I think] and rebuilt it with spares in 1977 for Mike. Schecker's 76B would probably have been chassis 1, and my guess is that the plate stayed on the rebuilt car he used late in 76 and which went to Klomfass in 77. I'd be very surprised if the Domingo car was plated.

The Modus appears to have been an incarnation of some bits of M3-022 an ex Brise car according to contemporary reports. The bulk of this car went in to what I call 022/054 - used by John Nicholson in 75 and now in the hands of Bryan Miller. If you could check that the Domingo Modus was used by John Simpson in 1977 I'd be grateful. [And if there are any Atlantic programmes, results sheets, q times, photos, etc which Mike is happy to copy or loan for the Atlantic records on oldracingcars I'd be delighted to see them!]

Chris

Chris

Mike Domingo mentioned to me that he built an entirely new tub himself in South Africa as the original tub on the Scheckter 76B was so badly damaged.

I'll ask re Simpson and if there are any records/programmes etc. Mike mentioned that he had only the other day been looking back through his career and that he had a number of photos, so perhaps he may have documented his racing career as well...

I may not be able to call him this weekend as things are a bit hectic but rest assured I will get round to it one weekend!

Re South African Atlantics, I have scans of approx 25 photos from an album I borrowed, taken I guess between 77 and 79. Not many 'whole car' shots, I'm afraid, and mostly from one team, reflecting the fact that the person whose photos they are worked for that team but include the Klomfass car, a number 4 March sponsored by Kronenbrau 1308 (which appears to sport a rather unusual-looking six cylinder engine, sorry no idea what it is!), Bernard Tilanus (again looks like a March) and lots of shots of Trevor van Rooyen's 79B, body on and body off. Also several shots of the Gunston B25 Chevrons, including one where you can actually read the chassis number B25-73-3!

Let me know if you are interested in seeing these.

Michael

[allenbrown]

Michael

Firstly, thanks very much for your emails on MOnday. I will respond shortly on those. I'm very grateful for the attachments.

Back to the Domings, my interest here is to work out which T140/142s they bought and who drove what. The first will be easier to answer than the second.

Mike Domingo appears in a T140 at Bulawayo 21 June 1970 and it's hard to see which of the usual South African T140s he could have had. Then, at the 13 Sep 1970 Bulawayo race, Alan D has one T140 and Mike another. One I can understand (Alan had the ex-Charlton/Parnell/Amm SL140/14, probably) but not two.

In early 1971, with the brothers still unable to race in South Africa, they run a "T142" for Allan Saffey and Bryan Meano at two races.

Joe and Mike then run a pair of Lolas at Roy Hesketh 4 Jul 1971 where Mike's is said to be a T142 and Joe's a T140. Then the same at Kyalami 7 Aug 1971 and at Bulawayo 19 Sep 1971 but then Meano takes over the T142 for the last two races of 1971 with Mike moving to the T140.

In 1972, Mike has a McLaren and Joe runs a T140 but Meano pops up in the T142 at one race and then Joe moves into the T142 near the end of the season and uses it for the 1973 season as well.

So did they really have a pair of T140s and a T142? Or did Mike rent his June 1970 car? Did they buy one Lola in from England or the US? So many questions?!

Any help you can provide making head or tail of this will be most gratefully received.

Best regards

Allen

[Chris Townsend]

Michael

Would love to see the photos, PM me and I'll give you an e mail and home addrtess

Chris

[allenbrown]

I've just been sent a dozen pictures from South African racing about 1973 and it encouraged me to bump this old thread.

Could I ask if anyone has programs from this period with entry lists? Michael has offered me a few but does anyone else have any?

Many thanks

Allen

[Dan Rear]

Slightly off thread, but I'm reading the Alan Henry 'Peterson' book, and it of course mentions the wonderful 721X. After they were dumped by the team, what happened to them. Were they scrapped or morphed into some other March. Anyone know ?

[allenbrown]

Both are in collections.

[Jeremy Jackson]

Joos Tollenaar occasionally races 721X-1 in TGP events (Usually at the annual Nurburgring OldTimer GP in August)

[allenbrown]

Really! I didn't know that.