How Schuey works...

[neutral]

forget what i've said!

NO WAY!!!

Gt_R that post was spot on!!! I have noticed a pattern in Angst's arguments. They are all based on
1)conjecture
2)conspiracy theories
3)IF's

This is hardly the approach I would take to convince someone.

And why FIA picked him to be the chosen one?

Exactly RED!!!

[downforce]

Originally posted by angst
If he is as good as he is made out why the need to nullify his teammates chances first?

...ok angst...no statistics.(not that I love'em)
However Brundle still had to get past Berger, Schumacher and Alesi, eventually.
Even if he did go onto win that would've put him 10points closer to Schuey...but thats it...closer?
And were talkin equal status between teammates.
Were also talking rookie versus seasoned practioner?

No i dont have anything against Brundle, infact i like him a lot.

Your point being if Schuey could beat Brundle without "the data hassle"...why not all his teammates?
Like i said in the beginning of this thread...Im sure he doesnt want to be beaten by his own hard work.

Herbert wins 2GPs in '95 + 1GP in '99..all without Schu finishing....doesnt convince me of his race winning ability.

and then to appear in F1racing and beg for sympathy to the anti-schus...bah!

[angst]

I could get embroiled in a petty squabble about TGF, but I'm not going to. The rabid response to a suggestion that TGF, while good, has yet to prove himself against a teammate of any worth on a level footing has raised doubts about how good he is shows the lack of clear thought on this subject.
As usual this seems to go in circles. I say 'why did he feel the need to withhold info from Johnny Herbert, and yet feel the need to be able to see his info?' and the reply is always ' well Johnny Herbert only won two GP in '95 and blah blah blah'. Well the question raised is, if he had an equal footing with TGF would he have pushed him harder? Of course we cannot know the answer to that, though I'm sure TGF fans think they do.
Any doubts about His Holyness are immediately treated as an attack. How many times do I have to say....maybe he is as good as he is made out. Why, though, does he feel the need to undermine his teammates as he did with Herbert if that is the case?
I haven't advocated any conspiracy theories at any point in my posts. But if I were to be asked why TGF......I believe Germany's F1 fan base was actually quite small at that time, that's quite a big market that's being missed, and Mickey the Schu seemed to capture the imagination in much the same way that Mansell did in Britain.....ie people who previously had little, if any, interest in F1 were falling over themselves to grab a piece of the action.
But I don't generally go along with conspiracy theories.

[angst]

downforce, to your credit you have actually offered up a reson why TGF would not want to share his info with his teammates. Maybe he doesn't want to be beaten by his own hard work. However I would still say that he is quite happy to use Herbert's hard work to better his own position. I am trying to point out that his reputation has not been fully tested, as he has not been alongside a teammate who has been allowed to have a fair fight against him.

[Gt_R]

Okie...angst...we owe u an argument!~
I love such heated (yet friendly) debates!

Quote First Post: "Just reading an interview with Johnny Herbert, and he was aksed about whether he believes he got the break he deserved in F1. He said that he almost had it in '95, but....
"Then it changed in Argentina. I remember Michael talking to me after the Thursday, when I was a thousandth quicker than him. Walking back to the car, he said 'Oh Johnny, I've spoken to Ross and our styles are slightly different. I'm sure there's things that you do different that you don't want me to see and there's things I do different that I don't want you to see.'
He didn't say what he meant, but the next day Ross told me that Flavo had said I couldn't see Michael's data but he could look at mine."
No wonder he dominates his teammates so much."

Highlight Point 1:

Michael told Johnny that "I'm sure there's things that you do different that you don't want me to see and there's things I do different that I don't want you to see.'"

So Michael is unwilling to share his data with JH
Yet, he adknowleged the fact that JH might not want to share his data with him too!
So, he was hinting (and accepts) that both drivers keep their own work to themselves...fair...well, other Great drivers did the same...

Conclusion: He did not demand for a one-sided sharing of information...So, accusations on his actions against teammates based on point 1 is NOT VALID!~

Highlight point 2:

Quote: JH said "the next day Ross told me that Flavo had said I couldn't see Michael's data but he could look at mine"

So...Michael accepts the fact that no sharing of data is allowed, and tells Flav the arrangement, but it could be Flav own decision to implement this rule, yet allow Schumacher access to JH data. Michael did not ask for it, Flav did it in an attempt to increase the chances of Michael winning...

Conclusion: Due to lack of concrete evidence, Michael is not charged with being afraid of fighting on level with teammates...A man is innocent unless proven guilty!

And if the fingers have to be pointed...it should be on Flav, NOT MICHAEL~~


By the way, Schumacher has a unique and superior setup and style far different from other drivers...which explains his great ability to adapt to a new track/condition etc...It's unlikely he could benefit more from his teammate then the other way around!

It might sound confusing...please let me know if what i say doesnt make sense! Thanks!

[angst]

No, not confused. I'm aware that he has a very different set-up style, and some of this he may indeed want to with-hold from his teammate. That much I cede.
Still he has refused to have a teammate on a level footing since. If he were to go all out against a teammate given equal status and comprehensively beat them, then of course that would answer all the questions I have. Who knows, maybe now that he has finally got that WDC for Ferrari Rubens may be allowed to race as an equal number 1. I hope so.

[R]

Then on the other hand, it could be that Michael told Johnny one thing, and Flavio something else...

Why did he get both Benetton and Ferrari to revolve around him? Why can he make arrangements and deals that few, if any, other drivers can? Because he's the best, that's why, and has been so since May 1st 1994. To get in this position he had to prove himself, and once he did that, he could virtually get any kind of treatment he wanted for himself and his team-mate. Like it or dislike it, but IMO that's the closest you'll get to the truth on this matter. Add that to Germany being such a big market, and the need for a successful driver from that country, and I think that pretty much sums it up.

[neutral]

Why can he make arrangements and deals that few, if any, other drivers can? Because he's the best, that's why, and has been so since May 1st 1994. To get in this position he had to prove himself, and once he did that, he could virtually get any kind of treatment he wanted for himself and his team-mate. Like it or dislike it, but IMO that's the closest you'll get to the truth on this matter.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[downforce]

Originally posted by angst
I am trying to point out that his reputation has not been fully tested, as he has not been alongside a teammate who has been allowed to have a fair fight against him.

...my point being Brundle, Jos, Herbert, Eddie and gang were never diving and darting at Michael's rear wheels and then denied a win by their teams. Sure they may have on the odd occasion but not regularly enuff to be world champ.
If they really were right there on his tail...Schuey fans would have begun to question his status.

Didnt "Zonta speak out" and "Coultard whine"...doesnt Prost side Alesi?

Spain2000...what was Rubens doing?...to deserve any "status" at all within the team...he was pathetic.

All team bosses would give evry xtra inch to the man they feel is a winner...

[angst]

Regarding Brundle, well he was darting over TGF's heels, and sometimes it was the other way round .
As far as Johnny, Irv and Rubens go, how can you be snapping at the heels of an obviously very good driver if you don't have the equipment/info available to you?
But, I'll try and put my question slightly differently. I believe him to be very good indeed, but I wonder why he hasn't tested himself against an opponent properly. I feel it will be a big hole in his CV, and will leave his reputation open to question, and if he is that good that would be a shame.
Don't mix up my opinion of his more dubious actions with my opinion of him as a driver. If he's that good wouldn't it be great to see him in a straight fight a la Prost/Senna?

[downforce]

Originally posted by angst
I believe him to be very good indeed, but I wonder why he hasn't tested himself against an opponent properly. I feel it will be a big hole in his CV, and will leave his reputation open to question, and if he is that good that would be a shame.

...refer one Mr Hakkinen, season2000, FIA Formule1...lol!

[neutral]

ANGST, do you seriously beleive that inferior equipment was given to Rubens? If you do then I will stop my argument right now. Everyone here is slightly subjective, but your disdain towards Schumi is seriously clouding your judgement.

[Gt_R]

This year, if not the past, Michael's teammate was given an equal car to himself.

i couldnt understand why Ferrari would purposely compromise their own team.

and also, they shared their set-up informations too. Michael stated that they (rubens and himself) had set up their cars together, and Rubens also openly stated he had been happy "working TOGETHER" with Michael, and did not complain about any problems regarding Informations.

But where did that get him? Besides qualifying near Michael in Monza, outqualify Michael once, and a few occasional close performance.

Otherwise, Michael had totally outperformed Rubens. Look no further than Nurburgring, Japan, Malaysia, USA 2000.

[angst]

neutral, depends on what you mean by inferior equipment, certainly inferior set-up info isn't out of the question. Let me ask you, do you seriously believe that Rubens has been treated as anything other than a strict number two to TGF this season?
I do not have disdain for Schumacher, I am questioning whether he is as good as some believe him to be. He is regarde as head and shoulders above every other driver around at the moment, and I don't believe that he is. I think he, Mika, Villeneuve, and Alesi are on a pretty equal footing. I haven't said he's lucked into the WDC (he hasn't, he worked hard for it and won it very well), I'm not questioning the fact that he is talented (he obviously is). My argument for questioning his reputation as by far the best driver of the current era is, if he really is that far ahead, why would he feel threatened enough by his teammates (Herbert, Irvine, Rubens) that he demands absolute number two status for them?
The only arguments that anybody has come out with is that he has destroyed his teammates so that shows he's the best. What I'm saying is his teammates have all been handicapped in comparison to him, so that is no basis for comparison.
Hakkinen won the championship two years running, and when he wins it's down to the car, and Schumacher's car is inferior etc., yet there is no evidenceto support this.
I am showing no disdain at all toward TGF. I would say denigrating the efforts of a double world champion as those of a pretty good driver, doing a good job in a superior car....well that I call disdainful.