Another "new" Porsche series

[NewsStalker]

SheepStations - thanks for that - exactly what I was after - so the 'real entry cost' is somewhere between $120k and $150k plus (spares etc?) - maybe a tad higher?

Which I suppose comes back to CAMS calling it an 'entry level' category....???

And try getting an answer of the V8SC people why the SuperKarts were 2sec a lap quicker than them at Eastern Creek.
Something to do with the track surface they say!!!!!

OldTony - V8's never liked the SUperbikes on the same program as them either - for the simple reason that the two categories (apart from open wheelers) that were consistently faster than the V8SC's were - yep, you guessed it - Superbikes and Superkarts.

Must have been the track surface all along (conspiracy theory number 5,396..)

[JerH77]

i hadnt heard anything about it.

[Sheep Stations]

The point you're missing Newstalker is that it is entry level national competition for Porsche racers. Most of the cars are already owned and are a viable asset, its not like we all have to go out and build one. I now have a competition where I can run against other like-minded people ala Commodore Cup, Geminis...and with the advent of this GT3 Cup challenge, I figure my old jigger has just appreciated in value!

Motorsport is expensive full stop. It's just your chosen flavour that determines how expensive.

[Denosaur]

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

I've read the reg's and no 997's in this category, and that won't change until 2010 at least(when new Cup Car due), so don't see any relevance.

Can never understand the beef about 997 Cup Cars and the whinge about not being allowed to run in GT. Porsche are only protecting their investment.

Look at Cochrane and the V8's. Can you imagine him allowing a current Supercar to run in someone elses series...yeah right. He doesn't even like speed comparisons at Indy and the Grand Prix because it doesn't reflect positively on the V8's.

You seem to be forgetting about the 997 GT3 Cup S that was recently released for FIA GT3 competition only. Much different car to the 997 GT3 Cup.

What I'm getting at is, is this an olive branch to try and stave off the suggested legal action by Aust GT against Cup Car Australia and CAMS, possibly even Porsche, for not allowing the 997 GT3 Cup S into the GT series.

It's more so Cup Car protecting there investment when you look at bigger picture as to who would suffer the most if anything. And why the hell would Porsche Australia fight against the possibility of selling one of there products, including parts and so on. Has me dumbfounded??

[NewsStalker]

Sheep Stations - I'm not trying to put the category down - just trying to get a feel for what CAMS consider 'entry level' and the cost associated with it. And I understand that a number of people already have cars but for someone new coming into this 'entry level' I was/am trying to figure out what their costs are going to be - whether buying a car from someone else or new. And, like any other category, you need to attract people to the series to make it survive - thus what will is cost these people.

I guess, though, a side issue here is that you say this is 'entry level Porsche racing' but CAMS make this claim:

“This is a further and clear example of us building a sustainable pathway within the sport and proactively addressing increased participation at the grass-roots, club level of the sport,” he added.

It's a big jumpt from grass-roots, club level sport to POrsche racing - no matter how we all look at it

[Sheep Stations]

Originally Posted by Denosaur

You seem to be forgetting about the 997 GT3 Cup S that was recently released for FIA GT3 competition only. Much different car to the 997 GT3 Cup.

What I'm getting at is, is this an olive branch to try and stave off the suggested legal action by Aust GT against Cup Car Australia and CAMS, possibly even Porsche, for not allowing the 997 GT3 Cup S into the GT series.

It's more so Cup Car protecting there investment when you look at bigger picture as to who would suffer the most if anything. And why the hell would Porsche Australia fight against the possibility of selling one of there products, including parts and so on. Has me dumbfounded??

15, read 15 only, Cup S are being produced for the entire planet! With respect, even if you were an Australian competitor married into the Porsche family and could secure one, the Race dept would not allow one of these things to compete in a p*ss-ant competition that is a mix of rules, regs and hybrids with as much relevance as a Beta video recorder. How is that promoting your elite product?

Porsche wouldn't give a toss about the threat of legal action from GT, taking Porsche to court would be an accelerated way for GT to bankrupt themselves. GT knew that Porsche and Cams have an agreement on current Cup Cars that protects the integrity of their investment in a premier Motorsport category, and its been in place since Carrera Cup inception.

This is not conspiracy, skull duggery or anything else but good business practice. To use an old John Laws saying "I don't know the meaning of success, but I do know the meaning of failure...and that is trying to please everyone"

...and Porsche are pretty damned successful.

[Sheep Stations]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

Sheep Stations - I'm not trying to put the category down - just trying to get a feel for what CAMS consider 'entry level' and the cost associated with it. And I understand that a number of people already have cars but for someone new coming into this 'entry level' I was/am trying to figure out what their costs are going to be - whether buying a car from someone else or new. And, like any other category, you need to attract people to the series to make it survive - thus what will is cost these people.

I guess, though, a side issue here is that you say this is 'entry level Porsche racing' but CAMS make this claim:



It's a big jumpt from grass-roots, club level sport to POrsche racing - no matter how we all look at it

Starting from scratch, agreed News Stalker, it would be a big jump with the 'benchmark" 996 Cup Car. But there are 30-odd 996 Cup Cars out there in someones hands, probably a similar number of log-booked production GT3's used in Targa's, 993RS, 964RS, 968CS (remember Fitzy campaigning these in Bathurst 12 hour).


Gee, it's starting to look like quite a spectacle to me, maybe 4 men an two dogs might watch.

[RS500]

from what i heard Mr French is getting his 997 cup upgraded to "S" spec.

Sheep Stations there may be 30 odd cars doesn't mean they will all come out. It will be interesting to see what happens with the series and where the competitor base preferences lie.

sounds like there are a few people with turbo 911's with their noses put out over the ban on the GT2's ect. After all these are the types of cars that have been banned from competing in most of the series (excluding Intermarque)

[Nero]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

Sheep Stations - I'm not trying to put the category down - just trying to get a feel for what CAMS consider 'entry level' and the cost associated with it. And I understand that a number of people already have cars but for someone new coming into this 'entry level' I was/am trying to figure out what their costs are going to be - whether buying a car from someone else or new. And, like any other category, you need to attract people to the series to make it survive - thus what will is cost these people.

I guess, though, a side issue here is that you say this is 'entry level Porsche racing' but CAMS make this claim:



It's a big jumpt from grass-roots, club level sport to POrsche racing - no matter how we all look at it

I too am interested in what people think represents entry level.
It is reasonable to expect that a walk in walk out season of FF will cost approx $250,000 for a top five capable car not counting damage costs and you effective own nothing at the end (note this is not a criticism)
The top IPRA cars can cost around $150,000 to put together, top level sports sedans must cost $300,000+ per car, Biante cars cost more than small change too. So what exactly is 'grass roots'?

[davelise]

Originally Posted by Nero

So what exactly is 'grass roots'?

Lawnmower racing?

[Nero]

I thought only mad englishmen did that!
Perhaps FVee (new car $50,000 with some spares), Superkarts if you have the testicular fortitude and lack of imagination WRT hard walls, Marque Sportscars, supersports...?

[GT's screwed the pooch]

I think the point that Shaga is trying to make that you all seem to have missed is that this is 'Grass Roots' at a National Series Level, something new and badly needed. Its the step between Club Racing and National Championship racing.
On the promotional flyer it says at the top, CLUB LEVEL NATIONAL SERIES..........

[GT's screwed the pooch]

Just thought I would start this thread with the correct title of the new porsche series announced for Australia.
The news releases appear here....www.gt3cupchallenge.com.au..
Looks like someone has finally done what the GT management should have done years ago........

[Prickly_Goo]

Why start another thread when there's one here: http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=104767

[NewsStalker]

Originally Posted by Nero

I thought only mad englishmen did that!

Believe it or not, there is an Australian Lawn Mower Racing organisation and championship! Do a google search for it - think you will be surprised (especially at the restrictions on each type of lawn mower they can use and the mods allowed!)

[top dog]

It's interesting to note that whilst Posche build more turbocharged sportscars than most other manufacturers and are more than happy to take $350-450k from a customer for a new "turbo" road car. They tend to treat that same customer as a second class citizen if they want to compete with one of these types of cars?

[Sheep Stations]

How do you figure that Top Dog? 996 and 993 turbo's well supported in Targa and rallies over past ten years by competitors and Porsche. The 997 Turbo is unfortunately too clever electronically and the suspension, ABS and 4WD systems can't be adapted to 'race spec'.

The GT3 and derivatives like the GT3RSR are the race platform for Porsche, thats what they build in their race dept. The Turbo is the be all and end all of road performance.

Don't forget, Porsche were so good with their turbo technology that their cars were banned from competition.eg: CanAm and F1 (Tag).

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

How do you figure that Top Dog? 996 and 993 turbo's well supported in Targa and rallies over past ten years by competitors and Porsche. The 997 Turbo is unfortunately too clever electronically and the suspension, ABS and 4WD systems can't be adapted to 'race spec'.

The GT3 and derivatives like the GT3RSR are the race platform for Porsche, thats what they build in their race dept. The Turbo is the be all and end all of road performance.

Don't forget, Porsche were so good with their turbo technology that their cars were banned from competition.eg: CanAm and F1 (Tag).

Hey Sheep Stations, I hate to sound like a pedant and go a bit OT but the Tag engine was NEVER banned. F1 rules changed to NA engines but by then the Tag engine was getting well and truly spanked by Honda in particular.

[Sheep Stations]

Yes, Tourer, a technicality. My point being that Porsches involvement in turbo development has often resulted in rules changes...

[NewsStalker]

Getting off topic, but F1 always changed the rules once something became dominant - regardless of who introduced or perfected it.

Skirts, fan cars, 6 wheels, turbo's, flying wings - this is just F1.

[GT's screwed the pooch]

Turbo's dont belong in a category where the organisers care about costs.
Turbo's just cant be controlled effectively and that inevitably leads to cheque book racing.
Turbo's belong in GT's where cost and performance have no limits..........

[GTRMagic]

What was wrong with the power/weight formula from the pre-Carrera Cup days of the Porsche championship?

Power delivery is always an issue...

[top dog]

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

How do you figure that Top Dog? 996 and 993 turbo's well supported in Targa and rallies over past ten years by competitors and Porsche. The 997 Turbo is unfortunately too clever electronically and the suspension, ABS and 4WD systems can't be adapted to 'race spec'.
The GT3 and derivatives like the GT3RSR are the race platform for Porsche, thats what they build in their race dept. The Turbo is the be all and end all of road performance.
Don't forget, Porsche were so good with their turbo technology that their cars were banned from competition.eg: CanAm and F1 (Tag).

I would have thought in these days of control ecu's, and data logging that turbos could be easily controlled?
The GT3's and the 993 turbos were very competitive with each other in the days of Porsche Cup and provided some of the closest racing of the time.

[top dog]

Originally Posted by GT's screwed the pooch

Turbo's dont belong in a category where the organisers care about costs.
Turbo's just cant be controlled effectively and that inevitably leads to cheque book racing.
Turbo's belong in GT's where cost and performance have no limits..........

Talk about cheque book racing? I bet there are (actually I know there are)plenty of GT3 and 996 Cup Car engines that have had heaps spent on them to produce extra power.
At least the turbos are "honest" , the power is a product of boost which can be very easily logged, monitored and controlled. How do you control the enthusiasts (cheats) with the naturally aspirated cars that fit 3.8l big bore kits ,change cams/timing, compression ratios, ecu programming etc etc. So much for turbos being cheque book racing? It costs far more to make extra power out of a Cup/GT3 engine than a turbo.
It really is a problem that so many with opinions on this subject actually have no real idea what they are talking about.

[GT's screwed the pooch]

Top dog, I am sure the GT's or Intermarque will welcome you with open arms.